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[Myusha]

Godak wrote...

casedawgz wrote...

Godak wrote...

Kerilus wrote...

So, do you think he drinks and makes fart jokes just for the heck of it? He was once a man of some status, and the sudden departure of his wife just broke him. His dignity, his honour, and people's respect of him, all collapsed. And these things mean everything in a dwarven society. 

He was nothing but a broken man before the Warden shows up. When his false hope that once Branka comes back, things would get back to place is once again broken before his eyes as he saw Branka gone mad/had to be slained in his own hands, I was thinking, man, he must feel like hell of a loser! Some people just gotta kill themselves over this.  By then, he truly has no place to go and his life is completely devoid of purpose. So he follows the Warden.

And it's the Warden that supposes to give him purposes in life. It's the warden that proves to him he's somebody. He could try to become a whole person because of his time with the warden. All these sound pretty deep to me, don't you think?

Just because a man has a troubled past does NOT mean he has depth.

After Branka's departure, he spends his time drinking and getting drunk, and he eventually kills a man for insulting him. He never tries to make more of himself.  He cares about Branka, true, but it is fairly clear that he does not love her, seeing as he started a relationship with Felsi not long after she left, and after her death, he immediately wishes to seek out Felsi.

In Awakening, Oghren has a new wife, and a child. However, he continues his alcoholic behavior, and I refused to help him come to terms with Felsi. I did not want him anywhere near his kid.

I really don't agree with the "broken man" bit. He seems to be very content with who he is, which is simply sad.

He's not content. And a lack of heroic redemption does not equate to a lack of depth.

He does not need to redeem himself to have depth. He does need more than flatulence, though.

You live in squalor for two years. Pull yourself out of that pit in a few minutes, for the sake of having Character Depth.

[errant_knight]

My first playthrough, I didn't let her become a warden. I couldn't find any reason for my PC not to think she'd go all mass murderer and drag the wardens through the mud in a time where their position was still slightly tenuous. I'm trying another playthrough since I missed so much dialogue with the new system. Maybe I'll find her less...insane.

Modifié par errant_knight, 24 mars 2010 - 01:31 .

[Blindside002]

I liked her alot actually, just as I liked everyone else in the game, except Ogrhen. And Final Fantasy 13 had fine female characters, don't know what else to say about that.

[Churono]

She gives me the impression that someone saw that Morrigan was popular, so they decided to make another mean woman with big breasts, forgetting to add any nuance to her. Eagerly awaiting the 'Slap Velanna" mod.

[Godak]

Kerilus wrote...

For Awakening, I did not get too much into him yet, so I can't judge.

That explains a lot. I don't want to spoil it for you (though I may have already), but you must keep in mind that the story of Origins takes place over the course of a year, or so. Awakening is...six months after, or something, right?  Anyways, Awakening pretty much destroyed any possible character depth he COULD have had. It really sours the whole experience. I honestly thought that they could do so much with him, they could show that he is slowly improving, becoming happier after he had a family with Felsi...instead, no, he's in the same rut, and he doesn't seem to give a flying nug.

[casedawgz]

That's why he's a tragic character. Hamlet could be slowly improving, becoming happier and having a family with Ophelia, but then Hamlet would be a bad play.

[Eonassassin]

I liked her, she is very well connected to her past just like most great characters. She was the "Morrigan" of this expansion but at least you could change her opinion about humans =D!

[errant_knight]

Godak wrote...

Kerilus wrote...

For Awakening, I did not get too much into him yet, so I can't judge.

That explains a lot. I don't want to spoil it for you (though I may have already), but you must keep in mind that the story of Origins takes place over the course of a year, or so. Awakening is...six months after, or something, right?  Anyways, Awakening pretty much destroyed any possible character depth he COULD have had. It really sours the whole experience. I honestly thought that they could do so much with him, they could show that he is slowly improving, becoming happier after he had a family with Felsi...instead, no, he's in the same rut, and he doesn't seem to give a flying nug.

Yeah, I like him much less than I did in Origins, I'm afraid. Some of that could be lingering distaste about the joining. Turning his joining into a drinking joke really cheapened the risk and the sacrifice, I thought.

[Godak]

casedawgz wrote...

That's why he's a tragic character. Hamlet could be slowly improving, becoming happier and having a family with Ophelia, but then Hamlet would be a bad play.

But Oghren ISN'T a tragic character. He does have a family and kids, and he is happy. But nothing about him actually changes. He is still always drunk, and he still makes stupid fart jokes. 

 Hamlet is, at first, only pretending to be mad, but slowly descends into true madness. He begins contemplating suicide, and his actions begin to destroy the lives of those around him...

Oghren? He stays EXACTLY THE SAME! That is not depth...that is stale, unchanging, and shallow.

[SurelyForth]

Godak wrote...

Kerilus wrote...

For Awakening, I did not get too much into him yet, so I can't judge.

That explains a lot. I don't want to spoil it for you (though I may have already), but you must keep in mind that the story of Origins takes place over the course of a year, or so. Awakening is...six months after, or something, right?  Anyways, Awakening pretty much destroyed any possible character depth he COULD have had. It really sours the whole experience. I honestly thought that they could do so much with him, they could show that he is slowly improving, becoming happier after he had a family with Felsi...instead, no, he's in the same rut, and he doesn't seem to give a flying nug.

I think he does give a flying nug, he just doesn't know what to do with that nug besides drown it in alcohol or stab it to death. Sometimes people break and they stay broken. It makes it very hard to deal with them, but I kind of felt (after my disappointment went away) that might just be the point. In Origins, you could save all of your companions with relative ease. In Awakening, the companion you should have the easiest time with turns out  to be worse than you left him and incredibly resistant to the usual lines. It's a challenge where you didn't have one before and, if you got him to 100 in Origins, it's sad and frustrating. Even if you win with him, you lose. He's never going to be the Oghren he hoped he'd be after the Archdemon was slain.

[casedawgz]

Godak wrote...

casedawgz wrote...

That's why he's a tragic character. Hamlet could be slowly improving, becoming happier and having a family with Ophelia, but then Hamlet would be a bad play.

But Oghren ISN'T a tragic character. He does have a family and kids, and he is happy. But nothing about him actually changes. He is still always drunk, and he still makes stupid fart jokes. 

 Hamlet is, at first, only pretending to be mad, but slowly descends into true madness. He begins contemplating suicide, and his actions begin to destroy the lives of those around him...

Oghren? He stays EXACTLY THE SAME! That is not depth...that is stale, unchanging, and shallow.

He's NOT happy! There are several moments where Oghren reluctantly displays subtle hints of vulnerability. It's just buried deep beneath a freewheeling, callous exterior. Think of Alistair, trying to divert his problems with humor. Oghren just takes it many steps further, to the point where it is very difficult to see the turmoil he feels. It's definitely there though. Oghren DOESN'T change. That's the point. He wants to...as illustrated by his attempts at happiness with Felsi. However, the unresolved feelings he has about what happened with Branka are a constant hurdle in his moving forward.

Modifié par casedawgz, 24 mars 2010 - 03:19 .

[Godak]

SurelyForth wrote...

He's never going to be the Oghren he hoped he'd be after the Archdemon was slain.

Well, now that's all speculation. He seems to be quite a bit happier in Awakening. He's certainly less mopey. See, in Origins, I was really hoping that Branka's death would have more of an affect on him. Instead, we get like...one or two conversations about it? I do all of his dialogues, and his personal quest, and I hear that he's coming back for Awakening. No, he wasn't my favorite, but he had more potential than any of the other characters, who were all mostly tied up as far as "this is my personality, blah blah blah". Oghren could have been so much more, but the fact that he was once again relegated to fart duty pretty much soldified in my mind that the writers only wanted him there for comedy relief, and that he wasn't really made to be taken seriously.

[casedawgz]

It's there if you want it. You obviously don't. He makes a point to not talk about it, because that's the tragedy of it. Oghren is incapable of having an honest discussion about Branka. It's all internalized with him, but it peeks through at key moments that seem to have flown right over your head.

[Godak]

casedawgz wrote...

It's there if you want it. You obviously don't. He makes a point to not talk about it, because that's the tragedy of it. Oghren is incapable of having an honest discussion about Branka. It's all internalized with him, but it peeks through at key moments that seem to have flown right over your head.

Have you played Awkakening? No, really, it will completely destroy him for you. Like I said, I realize that there were moments hinting at a darker side, and internal conflict, but...They're gone, now. It makes it seem like they decided to leave it open for "Depth" or "Comedy Relief" and they went with comedy relief. You can continue to rationalize BioWare's laziness by stating that "It's their, you just can't see it!" but it isn't. It really, really isn't. Not anymore, anyway.

[SurelyForth]

Godak wrote...

casedawgz wrote...

It's there if you want it. You obviously don't. He makes a point to not talk about it, because that's the tragedy of it. Oghren is incapable of having an honest discussion about Branka. It's all internalized with him, but it peeks through at key moments that seem to have flown right over your head.

Have you played Awkakening? No, really, it will completely destroy him for you. Like I said, I realize that there were moments hinting at a darker side, and internal conflict, but...They're gone, now. It makes it seem like they decided to leave it open for "Depth" or "Comedy Relief" and they went with comedy relief. You can continue to rationalize BioWare's laziness by stating that "It's their, you just can't see it!" but it isn't. It really, really isn't. Not anymore, anyway.

And can you not see any darkness peaking through that veneer of ham-handed flirting and constant inebriation? It's totally there (his dream alone should be throwing up red flags everywhere). If he was just along for laughs, he wouldn't be so moody in conversations and there probably wouldn't be a whole family-abandonment subplot. 

[Onyx Jaguar]

...



I think Velanna is a horrible and irredeemable character. You can justify Loghain's actions but hers are inexcusable.

[Godak]

SurelyForth wrote...

Godak wrote...

casedawgz wrote...

It's there if you want it. You obviously don't. He makes a point to not talk about it, because that's the tragedy of it. Oghren is incapable of having an honest discussion about Branka. It's all internalized with him, but it peeks through at key moments that seem to have flown right over your head.

Have you played Awkakening? No, really, it will completely destroy him for you. Like I said, I realize that there were moments hinting at a darker side, and internal conflict, but...They're gone, now. It makes it seem like they decided to leave it open for "Depth" or "Comedy Relief" and they went with comedy relief. You can continue to rationalize BioWare's laziness by stating that "It's their, you just can't see it!" but it isn't. It really, really isn't. Not anymore, anyway.

And can you not see any darkness peaking through that veneer of ham-handed flirting and constant inebriation? It's totally there (his dream alone should be throwing up red flags everywhere). If he was just along for laughs, he wouldn't be so moody in conversations and there probably wouldn't be a whole family-abandonment subplot. 

I never experienced moodiness outside of approval loss when I chose to use persuasion. The family abandonment makes perfect sense...He's a drunk, for goodness sakes!

Is it possible to miss the dream conversations? I know Awakening is buggy, but I didn't think it was THAT buggy. I just thought it was approval mishaps and what have you.

[casedawgz]

You have to bring him with you to Blackmarsh and intiate a conversation trigger on the flying boat in the fade.

[Sarah1281]

And the conversation he has about the anvil in Kal'Hirol.

[SurelyForth]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

...

I think Velanna is a horrible and irredeemable character. You can justify Loghain's actions but hers are inexcusable.

This reminds me of an Eddie Izzard bit where he talks about the more incomprehensibly high your body count, the more lenient your punishment. Velanna kills some people because she's gone a bit crazy from having her mind screwed over by darkspawn (and honest to goodness scavengers) and she's irredeemable. Loghain's actions directly and indirectly lead to the loss of thousands of lives and he deserves a pat on the head and a hero's death and/or a job with the Wardens that keeps him out of harms way (even if it is in Orlais).

I, obviously, find Velanna to be redeemable the same way Sten or Zevran or Leliana are redeemable. She's not pleasant, but being abrasive isn't a capital offense.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 24 mars 2010 - 03:52 .

[Addai]

I didn't get much on-screen time with her because Anders and Nathaniel were too valuable to leave behind, but I liked her well enough. You can see softer things underneath the prickly. I am also conditioned from Origins that the "disagreeable" characters often end up my favorites.

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

I quite liked her. While I didn't get to "feel" her, (like most of the Awakening companions, due to the short timeframe and the new dialogue system. Grrr...) I really liked her chemistry with Nate. That little love/hate relationship was fun to observe.

Though she didn't seem to like my PC's caring approach to her much...

[Onyx Jaguar]

Well the difference between Loghain is that he got people killed over paranoia that may have had some merit depending on which side you were on. Velanna willingly killed innocent people just because she thought some humans had killed some elves and kidnapped her sister.

[Ceridraen]

She's not my favorite - but worst? Nooooo! That will always belong to the whiny 'my wiiiings' elf girl in BG. She had me punching my computer at the sweetness overload. And I adore elves - am even human phobic. But - cringe.



Velanna's voice - fighting voice - grates on me a bit. But really, given how surprised I am to like others, Sigrun, Nathaniel & Justice, so much, I'm fine with her. She's even my healer in one of 3 teams. It's the fighting voice that gets me - but I couldn't use Leliana for the same reason. I deleted one of my *own* characters for a Voice from Hell. (some horrid, perky, obnoxious-girl elf voice - not sure which one)

[Nhadalie]

SurelyForth wrote...

This reminds me of an Eddie Izzard bit where he talks about the more incomprehensibly high your body count, the more lenient your punishment. Velanna kills some people because she's gone a bit crazy from having her mind screwed over by darkspawn (and honest to goodness scavengers) and she's irredeemable. Loghain's actions directly and indirectly lead to the loss of thousands of lives and he deserves a pat on the head and a hero's death and/or a job with the Wardens that keeps him out of harms way (even if it is in Orlais).

I, obviously, find Velanna to be redeemable the same way Sten or Zevran or Leliana are redeemable. She's not pleasant, but being abrasive isn't a capital offense.

You win just for mentioning Eddie Izzard as an example in an argument.


I agree with a lot of what you said back on topic though. Velanna isn't terribly pleasant, but the things she did is understandable if you look at it from her point of view. Her grief blinded her to the fact that it was obviously a set up. Because if humans had truly killed everyone, they wouldn't have left valuable weapons behind at the camp.

That's another case where the cultural divide comes in. As a Dalish elf, Velanna doesn't understand humans well enough to know that. She understands what she has been told by the Hahrens, and the Keeper. In other words, prejudiced stories about how the humans enslaved them, then took away their second homeland, and then forced them into alienages. While those things did occur, the situations aren't as black and white as she is shown through the stories.

With that said, I kind of like Velanna in some ways. I really do like the Dalish elves, and I have played as one before. I don't like her blind hatred, and her resistance to actually looking and seeing what humans are really like. But I understand it. The only thing I don't understand are her flirty banters with Nathaniel, that.. Well. They make me not really like her. Because I'm a Nathaniel fangirl, and jealous of it.


On the topic of Oghren, he obviously still has a number of issues. I mean hells. When he mentioned the dream he had, I wanted to go run away instead of dealing with them. And the issues weren't even mine. Oghren is very much a tragic character, even if he doesn't show it often. Everyone has different ways of dealing with their problems. Oghren's just happens to be acting like an idiot, drinking, and hitting on women for no reason. Like Sigrun said in their one banter, Oghren is all talk. He has enough issues with women as it is. He doesn't mean for anything to actually happen when he hits on a woman.