183 réponses à ce sujet

[Godak]

DAMMIT BIOWARE, I WANT OGRHEN'S DREAMS!

[EmperorSahlertz]

Godak wrote...

I rather wish she WAS in Origins. I would have liked to see her developed more. She has potential, and it's sad that she'll likely been thrown aside when the sequel/next expansion comes around.

The only companion among the new shirts who can't die (unless you kill her when you meet her) and you think they are gonna throw her away? Of all the new characters im certain she is the one with the most potential to show up again, especially since we still got her sister's storyline to solve.

[Nhadalie]

Godak wrote...

DAMMIT BIOWARE, I WANT OGRHEN'S DREAMS!

You want to dream about darkspawn, tea, crazy women, and babies?


The conversation in question happens when you click on the cask behind him. I'm not sure if something specific triggers it or not. But it definitely gives you one of the glimpses that Oghren is still very much affected by everything going on. And when he asks you for a horse, drunkenly, saying that because Branka used to have toy horses, it also shows that he's not as over Branka as he seems.

The horse toy conversation is priceless by the way. Both kind of depressing and kind of amusing at the same time. We all have little quirks that remind us of people we've loved. The toy horse happens to remind Oghren of Branka.

[Ceridraen]

That reminds me (and yes, Nathaniel's too good for her!) - weren't there supposed to be NPC romances in this? Not with our characters, but with each other? Does Velanna's tame banter with Nathaniel (and I guess Anders, in a 'reject immediately way'0 count as that, or Oghren's troubled marriage?

[casedawgz]

Nhadalie wrote...

Godak wrote...

DAMMIT BIOWARE, I WANT OGRHEN'S DREAMS!

You want to dream about darkspawn, tea, crazy women, and babies?


The conversation in question happens when you click on the cask behind him. I'm not sure if something specific triggers it or not. But it definitely gives you one of the glimpses that Oghren is still very much affected by everything going on. And when he asks you for a horse, drunkenly, saying that because Branka used to have toy horses, it also shows that he's not as over Branka as he seems.

The horse toy conversation is priceless by the way. Both kind of depressing and kind of amusing at the same time. We all have little quirks that remind us of people we've loved. The toy horse happens to remind Oghren of Branka.

Yeah, you click the cask, but it only triggers if you had the conversation at the flying boat after the darkspawn sends you into the Fade in Blackmarsh.

[dheer]

I don't think she's a bad character or poorly written. She's just whiny, naive and an unbelievable (female dog).

I'll quote what I said in another thread. "If I could launch Velanna into the blasted sun, I would."

Modifié par dheer, 24 mars 2010 - 04:42 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Oghren has got lots of depth some of the more shallow people just never bother looking beneath his immature and alcholic behavior.

A quick analysis of Oghren:

First he is a simple warrior (actually a quite good one if I recall), who has married a smith with a bright future. This girl proves to be a genius, she is announced Paragon and their entire family is elevated to nobles.
However, House Branka chooses to leave Oghren behind and ventures into the deep roads without Oghren. This leaves Oghren with a battered self-esteem. He is ridiculed by the rest of Orzammar, and he seeks solace in his only friend: Alchohol.
This prooves to be a downward spiral as the continued abscence of his wife, and the persistent rumors of Branka leaving Oghren for another doesn't help on Oghren's habit. One day during a prooving, Oghren "accidently" kills an opponent in a duel till-first-blood, and he looses his right to carry arms in Orzammar. This of course drives his self-esteem even further out the gutter, as he is now essentially unemployed (a warrior without weapons and all), and he drinks even more, while never giving up on Branka.
The rest of Orzammar does however, which frustrates Oghren and would probably have led to him drinking himself to death (if that is even possible for him) if not for the arrival of the Grey Warden.
At some point during all of this he clearly developed humor as a defense-mechanism to better cope with his life-situation. His womanizing (or at least his attempts to be) I'm willing to guess have always been there.

During awakening his behavior is quite typical for people with extremely low self-esteem: He runs away. When he finally got a good thing going with Felsi, he begins to have doubts he does not think himself worthy, and he seeks out the one thing he has always been good at: Killing, in an attempt to run away. It is not that he doesn't want to be with Felsi, it is just that he is scared. Scared of it going wrong, and being left humiliated again.

Never say Oghren doesn't have depth... Just pry away the outer layers.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 24 mars 2010 - 04:38 .

[Godak]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Godak wrote...

I rather wish she WAS in Origins. I would have liked to see her developed more. She has potential, and it's sad that she'll likely been thrown aside when the sequel/next expansion comes around.

The only companion among the new shirts who can't die (unless you kill her when you meet her) and you think they are gonna throw her away? Of all the new characters im certain she is the one with the most potential to show up again, especially since we still got her sister's storyline to solve.

I'm not saying that she's gone for good, only that I doubt she'll be touched on in the expansion/sequel. At least, I hope she isn't. I've had enough of darkspawn, for the time being. I'd rather do another little quest, and come back to the whole Architect thing. Yes, Velanna certainly has more reason to be involved in another game than any of the other new characters.
 

[Nhadalie]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Oghren has got lots of depth some of the more shallow people just never bother looking beneath his immature and alcholic behavior.

A quick analysis of Oghren:

First he is a simple warrior (actually a quite good one if I recall), who has married a smith with a bright future. This girl proves to be a genius, she is announced Paragon and their entire family is elevated to nobles.
However, House Branka chooses to leave Oghren behind and ventures into the deep roads without Oghren. This leaves Oghren with a battered self-esteem. He is ridiculed by the rest of Orzammar, and he seeks solace in his only friend: Alchohol.
This prooves to be a downward spiral as the continued abscence of his wife, and the persistent rumors of Branka leaving Oghren for another doesn't help on Oghren's habit. One day during a prooving, Oghren "accidently" kills an opponent in a duel till-first-blood, and he looses his right to carry arms in Orzammar. This of course drives his self-esteem even further out the gutter, as he is now essentially unemployed (a warrior without weapons and all), and he drinks even more, while never giving up on Branka.
The rest of Orzammar does however, which frustrates Oghren and would probably have led to him drinking himself to death (if that is even possible for him) if not for the arrival of the Grey Warden.
At some point during all of this he clearly developed humor as a defense-mechanism to better cope with his life-situation. His womanizing (or at least his attempts to be) I'm willing to guess have always been there.

During awakening his behavior is quite typical for people with extremely low self-esteem: He runs away. When he finally got a good thing going with Felsi, he begins to have doubts he does not think himself worthy, and he seeks out the one thing he has always been good at: Killing, in an attempt to run away. It is not that he doesn't want to be with Felsi, it is just that he is scared. Scared of it going wrong, and being left humiliated again.

Never say Oghren doesn't have depth... Just pry away the outer layers.

Not to mention the fact that House Branka was mostly made up of Oghren's family, House Kondrat. All of House Kondrat joined House Branka when Branka became a paragon. So everyone that Oghren cared about got killed off by his insane wife in her greed for the anvil.


I think we can all agree that the man has some serious issues, and needs help. However, like real people, until Oghren admits that he needs help he won't make any progress. You can tell someone over and over again how they need to change, and what they can do to fix things in their lives. But if someone isn't ready to admit that things need to change, they aren't going to even listen to what you have to say. Even if you give them amazing advice, or are a professional.(As someone who gave up on her dream of becoming a psychologist and helping people for that exact reason, I can say this. )

[Godak]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Never say Oghren doesn't have depth... Just pry away the outer layers.

If you had my Oghren Awakening experience, it really felt like BioWare was trying to retcon him, and make him a purely comic relief character. Now I'm mad, though. I tried to see everything, and I was already pissed that a glitch kept me from Velanna/Sigrun's companion quest, but this...This is just stupid!

[casedawgz]

Did you bring him to the fade? It's right when you get there, in the little clearing you start in.

[Godak]

casedawgz wrote...

Did you bring him to the fade? It's right when you get there, in the little clearing you start in.

No...I tried to switch out companions! I wanted to explore my options!


...OGGY!

[casedawgz]

Yeah, that's actually kind of a big screwup on Bioware's part. I believe it's the only convo trigger that's permanantly missable.

[Nhadalie]

Godak wrote...

casedawgz wrote...

Did you bring him to the fade? It's right when you get there, in the little clearing you start in.

No...I tried to switch out companions! I wanted to explore my options!


...OGGY!

There there, Godak. ~patpat~

Is it bad that everytime you use that emote, I think of that one picture of you?


Back on topic. Uh.. I never managed to get Velanna's quest to spawn. I spent about 40 minutes jumping between places hoping for the random encounter that causes it. I was bummed when it never happened.

Also, I actually thought giving her the blank book was really cute. Especially when it gave me the option to be all stern and matter of fact with her. "You're going to fill it." "With what? Recipes?" "No. Stories for the Dalish."

[Godak]

casedawgz wrote...

Yeah, that's actually kind of a big screwup on Bioware's part. I believe it's the only convo trigger that's permanantly missable.

...Now I just feel like a douche-monger. They didn't remove his depth...they just hid it, far, far away. It's not my fault that Nathaniel seemed a bit more interesting at the moment!

[casedawgz]

Godak wrote...

casedawgz wrote...

Yeah, that's actually kind of a big screwup on Bioware's part. I believe it's the only convo trigger that's permanantly missable.

...Now I just feel like a douche-monger. They didn't remove his depth...they just hid it, far, far away. It's not my fault that Nathaniel seemed a bit more interesting at the moment!

It's cool. I still like Oghren's story but it took me three playthroughs to actually get his approval high enough to see it. First time through I kept saying things that pissed him off and second time through his gifts were glitched and only giving 6 approval.

[Godak]

Nhadalie wrote...
Is it bad that everytime you use that emote, I think of that one picture of you?

Not at all. I think that's my defining moment.

Nhadalie wrote...

Back on topic. Uh.. I never managed to get Velanna's quest to spawn. I spent about 40 minutes jumping between places hoping for the random encounter that causes it. I was bummed when it never happened.

Also, I actually thought giving her the blank book was really cute. Especially when it gave me the option to be all stern and matter of fact with her. "You're going to fill it." "With what? Recipes?" "No. Stories for the Dalish."

I spent about an hour. Yeah. So bugged.

I liked Velanna's tree convo, too.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Nhadalie wrote...

Not to mention the fact that House Branka was mostly made up of Oghren's family, House Kondrat. All of House Kondrat joined House Branka when Branka became a paragon. So everyone that Oghren cared about got killed off by his insane wife in her greed for the anvil.


I think we can all agree that the man has some serious issues, and needs help. However, like real people, until Oghren admits that he needs help he won't make any progress. You can tell someone over and over again how they need to change, and what they can do to fix things in their lives. But if someone isn't ready to admit that things need to change, they aren't going to even listen to what you have to say. Even if you give them amazing advice, or are a professional.(As someone who gave up on her dream of becoming a psychologist and helping people for that exact reason, I can say this. )

Actually the best way of making Oghren change is by having your Warden do the Ultimate Sacrifice, while Oghren has a high approval of you. This will make him realize the flaws in his way of life, make him look up Felsi, marry her (At least how I remember it), and shed a tear and name his first born after his friend which changed his life... That epilogue slide made me look at Oghren a whole new way.

[Sarah1281]

Yeah, you click the cask, but it only triggers if you had the conversation at the flying boat after the darkspawn sends you into the Fade in Blackmarsh.

Really? I got the dream on my first playthrough and I didn't take him into the Fade.

[casedawgz]

Oh, I got it immediatly after returning after that. I assumed they were linked because they were both about dreams.

[Nhadalie]

Godak wrote...

Not at all. I think that's my defining moment.

I spent about an hour. Yeah. So bugged.

I liked Velanna's tree convo, too.

You're defined by a picture?


I liked Velanna's tree convo until she got all ****y about it suddenly towards the end. We were having a nice female bonding moment. Why do none of the females in Awakening want to be my friends?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Actually the best way of making
Oghren change is by having your Warden do the Ultimate Sacrifice, while
Oghren has a high approval of you. This will make him realize the flaws
in his way of life, make him look up Felsi, marry her (At least how I
remember it), and shed a tear and name his first born after his friend
which changed his life... That epilogue slide made me look at Oghren a
whole new way.

I meant in real life, that's how those things are handled. In real life, someone dying doesn't suddenly make someone have an epiphany about how they need to change. It makes them damn depressed, and question a lot of things. But it doesn't necessarily make them change drastically like that.

Someone who has experienced as much as  Oghren has would need a lot of counseling with a psychologist.

[contown]

Yeah, she was pretty bad. I can't stand the VA either. She makes my mind flash to avatar, and I then I can't stop cringing. Not to mention she's a (insert other term for female dog here) like Morrigan, she hates when you help people like Morrigan, and she even has Morrigan's haircut. Really, bioware? Just giving her elf ears doesn't make her a new character.

Modifié par contown, 24 mars 2010 - 05:10 .

[Isavald]

 I think its funny how people react to the fact that an NPC will be rather mean or stern with them. Like that makes them a bad character immediately because they're not just totally upbeat about hanging around with you.

I don't know how many posts I've seen dissing Morrigan because she was a "mean ****". I think it adds realism to the story, the idea that you can't please everyone, and that to get closer to some of these characters you have to "make the effort" to earn their trust or perhaps in Morrigan's case, her interest.

I enjoy characters like Velanna and Morrigan, more so than Allistar or Anders. its not that Allistar wasn't my DN's bro all the way through my original play-through, but the 2 dimensional sense of right and wrong gets old towards the end of the game. I feel Alli/Anders are very much alike in this regard, just on opposing ends of the Templar/Apostate issue.

The game was too short to get very close to Velanna, but I very much hope she makes a reappearance. I like the fact that giving her thought provoking responses gains approval with her, more so than blatant flattery. I'd like to see her evolve as a character and eventually somewhat overcome her racial hatreds. I also love she asked questions in banter about Dwarven culture, an elf with a willingness to even hear about dwarven culture is awesome. I'm glad Bioware didn't go the generic fantasy route where elves and dwarves are always in opposition.

[Sarah1281]

I liked Velanna's tree convo until she got all ****y about it suddenly towards the end. We were having a nice female bonding moment. Why do none of the females in Awakening want to be my friends?

I know! I was just trying to be nice when I told her she'd have made a good keeper (this was right after I first got her so I didn't know much about her yet) and then she bit my head off about how her keeper said she'd have gotten everyone killed and how dare I presume to know more than she did. How was I supposed to know any of that? At that point - as her side quest even lets you note - it looked like she wouldn't be keeper because darkspawn killed her clan.



At least there's always Sigrun, even if she needs you to take an active role in preventing her suicide.

[Godak]

Nhadalie wrote...

Godak wrote...

Not at all. I think that's my defining moment.

I spent about an hour. Yeah. So bugged.

I liked Velanna's tree convo, too.

You're defined by a picture?  

...But of course.

Nhadalie wrote...
Why do none of the females in Awakening want to be my friends?

They're all stupid and mean and dumb, that's why! They should be begging you to be their friend, not the other way around.

...Yes, I am very good at being a suck up.

Nhadalie wrote...

I meant in real life, that's how those things are handled. In real life, someone dying doesn't suddenly make someone have an epiphany about how they need to change. It makes them damn depressed, and question a lot of things. But it doesn't necessarily make them change drastically like that.

Someone who has experienced as much as  Oghren has would need a lot of counseling with a psychologist.

And, as you've said, he would need to come to the conclusion that his behavior is doing more harm than good. Perhaps his new family would help him see that? It would be a long process of him coming to terms with his feelings for Branka, her "betrayal", her insanity, and her eventual death. He would also need to accept that the alcohol and the humor only exacerbates his evasive behavior.