51 réponses à ce sujet

[wrdnshprd]

i have a question.. can we agree that origins is a succesor to baldur's gate and NWN?

if so.. at least in NWN case, werent the expansions SEPERATE CAMPAIGNS? yes, you could use your existing characters (like you can in awakening), but most of the games from what i remember, were different campaigns all together.. yet these were still billed as expansions, and for the most part were pretty decent.  

to me, awakening is the same format.  in both instances, you select the campaign (in this case awakening) from the startup menu, and go from there. 

if we can agree that the expansions for NWN were seperate campaigns but still expansions (i am no as up on baldur's gate, so i dont remember if those expansions were the same format or not), then can't we also agree that awakening is also an expansion?  it may not be the expansion you wanted.. it may be expensive for what you get.. but can we at least agree that it IS an expansion?

[astrallite]

Maybe. But content wise, Mask of the Betrayer I feel was superior, and it cost what, $25?

[wrdnshprd]

astrallite wrote...

Maybe. But content wise, Mask of the Betrayer I feel was superior, and it cost what, $25?

just because that expansion was - in your opinion - better, and had a better value.. does not disqualify awakening from being an expansion. 

[Wicked 702]

No it's not an expansion, and here's why:

An expansion, taking the literal meaning of the word, must expand upon the original game. It must add something new, say a new campaign, while also integrating itself into the base. For example, the expansions to NWN added new prestige classes and skills. Those skills/classes were integrated into the original campaign, therefore adding to it greatly. I could start a new character and use the skills I installed within the context of the regular campaign. With DA:O:A, I cannot. The "purchase" does not integrate in ANY way with the original campaign. It adds nothing. In a sense, it is really more of a sequel. But since it isn't very long I'd call it Dragon Age 1.2 or something.

Edit: Now that I think about it, the best description for Awakenings would have been a module. That's exactly what it is. A separate and distinct module from the original game that adds nothing to it but allows you to important your character from the original into it.

Modifié par Wicked 702, 23 mars 2010 - 11:44 .

[Unseen_77]

Wicked 702 wrote...

No it's not an expansion, and here's why:
An expansion, taking the literal meaning of the word, must expand upon the original game. It must add something new, say a new campaign, while also integrating itself into the base. For example, the expansions to NWN added new prestige classes and skills. Those skills/classes were integrated into the original campaign, therefore adding to it greatly. I could start a new character and use the skills I installed within the context of the regular campaign. With DA:O:A, I cannot. The "purchase" does not integrate in ANY way with the original campaign. It adds nothing. In a sense, it is really more of a sequel. But since it isn't very long I'd call it Dragon Age 1.2 or something.

Great points! As I agree,

This was an stand alone add-on not an expanion as it was advertised to be. As you have said if it was an expanion to DA:O, skills and talents would have been intergrated into the DA:O campaign. 

Modifié par Unseen_77, 23 mars 2010 - 11:54 .

[DoDadds]

Wicked 702 wrote...

No it's not an expansion, and here's why:

An expansion, taking the literal meaning of the word, must expand upon the original game. It must add something new, say a new campaign, while also integrating itself into the base. For example, the expansions to NWN added new prestige classes and skills. Those skills/classes were integrated into the original campaign, therefore adding to it greatly. I could start a new character and use the skills I installed within the context of the regular campaign. With DA:O:A, I cannot. The "purchase" does not integrate in ANY way with the original campaign. It adds nothing. In a sense, it is really more of a sequel. But since it isn't very long I'd call it Dragon Age 1.2 or something.

Edit: Now that I think about it, the best description for Awakenings would have been a module. That's exactly what it is. A separate and distinct module from the original game that adds nothing to it but allows you to important your character from the original into it.

1. It added something new.
2. Base was integrated. It follows what happens right after the first game. It added new skills.
3. Those new skills have a base level 20 req. Even if they were added to Origins you still wouldn't be able to use them until the last few hrs of game time.

You keep saying it adds "nothing" but the Arling was granted to the Wardens in Origins. How does playing a campaign in the lands granted in the first game not add to the story? Oh, wait, I guess because it follows the story. Point taken.

[Wicked 702]

DoDadds wrote...

Wicked 702 wrote...

No it's not an expansion, and here's why:

An expansion, taking the literal meaning of the word, must expand upon the original game. It must add something new, say a new campaign, while also integrating itself into the base. For example, the expansions to NWN added new prestige classes and skills. Those skills/classes were integrated into the original campaign, therefore adding to it greatly. I could start a new character and use the skills I installed within the context of the regular campaign. With DA:O:A, I cannot. The "purchase" does not integrate in ANY way with the original campaign. It adds nothing. In a sense, it is really more of a sequel. But since it isn't very long I'd call it Dragon Age 1.2 or something.

Edit: Now that I think about it, the best description for Awakenings would have been a module. That's exactly what it is. A separate and distinct module from the original game that adds nothing to it but allows you to important your character from the original into it.

1. It added something new.
2. Base was integrated. It follows what happens right after the first game. It added new skills.
3. Those new skills have a base level 20 req. Even if they were added to Origins you still wouldn't be able to use them until the last few hrs of game time.

You keep saying it adds "nothing" but the Arling was granted to the Wardens in Origins. How does playing a campaign in the lands granted in the first game not add to the story? Oh, wait, I guess because it follows the story. Point taken.

That's barely a refutation, if even that. #1: It DID NOT add something new to the original, which was my statement above, and is still correct. The original remains unchanged. #2: You reversed my words and then make them untrue? I didn't say base was integrated, I said integrated into the base. Those, my friend, are two wholly and separate things. It WAS NOT integrated into the base game in any way. #3: What? That's not a counterpoint, that's proving my point. Thank you.

[Realmzmaster]

Where in the definitive definition of expansion for a video game does it say that the stuff in the expansion must integrate into the OC? Show me the definitive definition. An expansion builds upon the original. No where does it say it has to change the original.

[wrdnshprd]

you make a good point regarding the skill system and such.. but i could have sworn that the classes, skills, etc from these games would NOT be included unless i played that specific expansion.. for example i belive the first expansion to NWN2 added a spirit system to the combat (or something like that).. it was my understanding that if i still played the original campaign, i would not see the spirit system. the same with the last expansion for NWN2 where there was random fights in the world map.. if i had both expansions installed and i played the original NWN2 campaign, my understanding is i wouldnt get the random battles on the world map or have the spirit system. am i wrong?



if i am correct.. isnt awakening doing the same thing? if so, thats my point. yes, you could consider awakening a module, but i would argue that the expansions for NWN are modules as well, as they are accessed the same way.

[cachx]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Where in the definitive definition of expansion for a video game does it say that the stuff in the expansion must integrate into the OC? Show me the definitive definition. An expansion builds upon the original. No where does it say it has to change the original.

This.

Also, it must be easier to market a "expansion" instead of a "module". We're just talking semantics here...

[Wicked 702]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Where in the definitive definition of expansion for a video game does it say that the stuff in the expansion must integrate into the OC? Show me the definitive definition. An expansion builds upon the original. No where does it say it has to change the original.

I'm not disagreeing with you. But I said the literal definiton of expansion, that means dictionary. Nothing to do with video games per say. The actual definition of expand involves taking something and making IT bigger. I have to take an item and add something to IT (specifically) that in some way enhances or grows the original. Awakenings does not do that. It exists as its own separate and unique entity. Purchasing and installing it adds nothing to the original game in any way. Awakenings is like a second smaller bubble next to the original bubble. The first bubble does not change in size or shape.

[Wicked 702]

wrdnshprd wrote...

you make a good point regarding the skill system and such.. but i could have sworn that the classes, skills, etc from these games would NOT be included unless i played that specific expansion.. for example i belive the first expansion to NWN2 added a spirit system to the combat (or something like that).. it was my understanding that if i still played the original campaign, i would not see the spirit system. the same with the last expansion for NWN2 where there was random fights in the world map.. if i had both expansions installed and i played the original NWN2 campaign, my understanding is i wouldnt get the random battles on the world map or have the spirit system. am i wrong?

if i am correct.. isnt awakening doing the same thing? if so, thats my point. yes, you could consider awakening a module, but i would argue that the expansions for NWN are modules as well, as they are accessed the same way.

I never played NWN2. In NWN (the first) the skills installed with the expansions did integrate into the original and you could use them. If they did not in NWN2, then I would argue those weren't "expansions" either.

[TheMadCat]

classes and skills in MotB could be used in the OC as well.

[ransompendragon]

Maybe we can say it just doesn't fit our pre-conceived notions of what an expansion is? Mine would be, based on my experience with other games, a module that would integrate into the original but might not necessarily have to be played at the "end" of the story (in fact I was so mad recently that I saved the TOSC quests until the end of BG because I forgot you couldn't pick up and continue after the last encounter w Saravok).

Oblivion and Morrowind expansions could be played at the begining of the core game. Medieval 2 TW Kingdoms added to the original as did Barbarion Invasion for Rome TW. And the expansions for Civ IV added to the original game.

I can't comment on NWN because, I am ashamed to say, I never finished the orig campaign and although I bought both expansions I never did those either.

But I will still play Awakenings as soon as I can get my wife to buy it for me! (Honey, this expansion pack isn't worth $40 but can I have it anyway? Good thing she isn't like Morrigan!)

[Smaaen90]

Wicked, not to sound like a douche, but you're basically saying that it's not Awakening, and I quote:

Wicked 702 wrote...
#1: It DID NOT add something new to the original, which was my statement above, and is still correct. The original remains unchanged.

I'm not going to argue against that, the Original remainds unchanged, and that is how I want it. I don't want content from an expansion that occurs AFTER the blight to appear in the origins, before and during the blight, it's a ludicrous thing to wish for.

As for skills, where-as the ones from Awakening weren't implemented into Origins (which many, many games don't do, cause it would ruin the original game play), it very well follows every guide line an expansion should follow.
Quoting your lest reply:

Wicked 702 wrote...
I'm not disagreeing with you. But I said the literal definiton of expansion, that means dictionary. Nothing to do with video games per say. The actual definition of expand involves taking something and making IT bigger. I have to take an item and add something to IT (specifically) that in some way enhances or grows the original. Awakenings does not do that. It exists as its own separate and unique entity. Purchasing and installing it adds nothing to the original game in any way. Awakenings is like a second smaller bubble next to the original bubble. The first bubble does not change in size or shape.

Why are you arguing using something that "has nothing to with video games per say"? This is a game, and let me quote you with a different meaning of the word 'expansion' -

Expansion is the process of becoming greater in size, number, or amount.

Now, back to your last reply, you say that Awakening does not take anything from the original, that it exists as its own separate and unique entitiy. Yet I'm playing with one of the characters I used in Origins, and now I have my own Keep I'm in charge of, you get to see Alistair, Anora, Loghain and Wynne (however briefly) and the story follows from the ending of Dragon Age: Origins.

Conclussion: Dragon Age: Origins - Awakening is infact an expansion, just not the kind you want (that adds things to Origins in return.. Which is off, as Origins is not an expansion from Awakening.)

Unless I've totally misunderstood your entire reasoning and wording, you're way off stating that Awakening is not an expansion.. If I did misunderstand, I apologize.

Modifié par Smaaen90, 24 mars 2010 - 01:39 .

[Imban]

wrdnshprd wrote...

i have a question.. can we agree that origins is a succesor to baldur's gate and NWN?

if so.. at least in NWN case, werent the expansions SEPERATE CAMPAIGNS? yes, you could use your existing characters (like you can in awakening), but most of the games from what i remember, were different campaigns all together.. yet these were still billed as expansions, and for the most part were pretty decent.  

to me, awakening is the same format.  in both instances, you select the campaign (in this case awakening) from the startup menu, and go from there. 

if we can agree that the expansions for NWN were seperate campaigns but still expansions (i am no as up on baldur's gate, so i dont remember if those expansions were the same format or not), then can't we also agree that awakening is also an expansion?  it may not be the expansion you wanted.. it may be expensive for what you get.. but can we at least agree that it IS an expansion?

Amusingly, despite how much I loved Awakening, one of my only gripes about it was that it didn't expand the original game even though it could have - you can't pick the new skills there, or do runecrafting, or get the new talents and specializations...

On the other hand, I loved Awakening, so it's a relatively small gripe in comparison to the game qualty.

[Layn]

does it really matter what you call it? i mean, whatever you call it, it will still be something of 30-40 $/€ that provided about 15 hours of gameplay. be it a DLC, an addon, an expansion, or a full game, what matters is if it entertained enough to warrant such a high price. and obviously to many here it didn't (even though i think, most of us can agree, that it was all in all good, just not 40€ good)

[worksa8]

I retract my earlier statements, Awakening IS an expansion. It's just not a very good one...It had an excuse at least before, but now it's just clumsy xP

Modifié par worksa8, 24 mars 2010 - 01:45 .

[Wicked 702]

Smaaen90 wrote...

Wicked, not to sound like a douche, but you're basically saying that it's not Awakening, and I quote:

Wicked 702 wrote...
#1: It DID NOT add something new to the original, which was my statement above, and is still correct. The original remains unchanged.

I'm not going to argue against that, the Original remainds unchanged, and that is how I want it. I don't want content from an expansion that occurs AFTER the blight to appear in the origins, before and during the blight, it's a ludicrous thing to wish for.

As for skills, where-as the ones from Awakening weren't implemented into Origins (which many, many games don't do, cause it would ruin the original game play), it very well follows every guide line an expansion should follow.
Quoting your lest reply:

Wicked 702 wrote...
I'm not disagreeing with you. But I said the literal definiton of expansion, that means dictionary. Nothing to do with video games per say. The actual definition of expand involves taking something and making IT bigger. I have to take an item and add something to IT (specifically) that in some way enhances or grows the original. Awakenings does not do that. It exists as its own separate and unique entity. Purchasing and installing it adds nothing to the original game in any way. Awakenings is like a second smaller bubble next to the original bubble. The first bubble does not change in size or shape.

Why are you arguing using something that "has nothing to with video games per say"? This is a game, and let me quote you with a different meaning of the word 'expansion' -

Expansion is the process of becoming greater in size, number, or amount.

Now, back to your last reply, you say that Awakening does not take anything from the original, that it exists as its own separate and unique entitiy. Yet I'm playing with one of the characters I used in Origins, and now I have my own Keep I'm in charge of, you get to see Alistair, Anora, Loghain and Wynne (however briefly) and the story follows from the ending of Dragon Age: Origins.

Conclussion: Dragon Age: Origins - Awakening is infact an expansion, just not the kind you want (that adds things to Origins in return.. Which is off, as Origins is not an expansion from Awakening.)

Unless I've totally misunderstood your entire reasoning and wording, you're way off stating that Awakening is not an expansion.. If I did misunderstand, I apologize.

Apologies for starting the quote pyramid. Too lazy to cut/paste pertinent points. Going to keep it simple and generalized. I'm not sure how you see your definiton of expansion as different. Origins (the game) does not change in any way. It is not expanded. Awakenings is a module that allows you to take a previously generated character and add into the experience. This is just like any community developed module made for NWN where they made it level 20-30 or something. You would take a character previously created in the regular NWN campaign and import it into that story. Whether the story relates to the original is a moot point, it exists as a separate entity.

Now granted, this module is more detailed in that some of the choices made in the original affect things that happen in it. By that definition, you could argue Mass Effect 2 to be an expansion to ME1 since certain things transfer over but we all know this is not true. For something to TRULY be an expansion it must work in both directions: Forward, by adding new content and quests and backward, by improving directly upon the original with new units, skills, enemies, etc. Awakenings only goes one way. It's an add-on, a module.

Edit: Unless we just want to argue that something officially made by the company is an "expansion" and anything produced by the community is a "module", completely ignoring the actual composition of such things, then we really are arguing semantics.

Modifié par Wicked 702, 24 mars 2010 - 02:04 .

[wwwwowwww]

Ok so it's not an expansion(debatable) it's not a module (debatable) so what are we left with?



Sounds to me like the best description is that DA:A is an EXTENSION

[Ashrite]

if its an expansion then its a really short expansion cant beleave i play it out in only 2 short night.......

[ChaosUndivded]

hasnt this debate already been had in like 20 other topic headings.. ah well i get to say it again so i dont mind..

DAo:A is not an expansion for the same reasons already listed.. it adds nothing new..

as a stand-alone campaign (with a very small cross-over content) it's pretty damn enjoyable, if somewhat dissapointingly short, and the ending.. omg..

Mellisan, now THAT was a boss fight.. think i'm still having nightmares over that one

[7th_Phoenix]

Ashrite wrote...

if its an expansion then its a really short expansion cant beleave i play it out in only 2 short night.......

That was fast. It took me an extra night longer than you. And yeah, it was an awfully short expansion. It was just worth the play, I feel; however, It wasn't spectacular as I thought it would be. 

[bzombo]

wrdnshprd wrote...

i have a question.. can we agree that origins is a succesor to baldur's gate and NWN?

if so.. at least in NWN case, werent the expansions SEPERATE CAMPAIGNS? yes, you could use your existing characters (like you can in awakening), but most of the games from what i remember, were different campaigns all together.. yet these were still billed as expansions, and for the most part were pretty decent.  

to me, awakening is the same format.  in both instances, you select the campaign (in this case awakening) from the startup menu, and go from there. 

if we can agree that the expansions for NWN were seperate campaigns but still expansions (i am no as up on baldur's gate, so i dont remember if those expansions were the same format or not), then can't we also agree that awakening is also an expansion?  it may not be the expansion you wanted.. it may be expensive for what you get.. but can we at least agree that it IS an expansion?

you're about to get yourself in a very heated debate over semantics. it's an expansion, but some like to nitpick and quibble over everything and are never happy until a developer sits in the poster's living room and designs a game specifically for them and only them. apparently, awakening should have reinvented the wheel, turned water into wine, cured disease, and only cost $10. people fail to realize that ea makes the pricing decisions, not the people at bioware that made the game. whining on here does nothing but bog down the forums.

[Artisian]

I'd like to think of this as a "what-if" kind of expansion.

It doesn't add onto the original storyline, its more of a "what if this happend.." Which would explain why you are alive if you chose to die, same with wynne and whatnot.

Modifié par Artisian, 31 mars 2010 - 07:08 .