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[Wildecker]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Wildecker wrote...

There is this often ignored feature of maneuvering thrusters. So they may not be able to outrun the Geth, but they can turn around sloooowly and bring their main gun to bear.
It just turned out that I knocked out Sovereign's puppet before the Destiny could align with Sovereign.

Main drive offline.  No Mass Effect fields.  No Mass Accelerator weapons.  That ship told you that it was dead in the water before you decided to save it.  We know the ship can move still, we see it moving in both cutscenes where the Alliance saves them or ignores them.  This has nothing to do with theior main drive.

Hello? Did you even bother to listen to their distress call? "Main drive is offline. Kinetic barriers at 40%." Not a word about weapons, and a kinetic barrier IS a mass effect field. They have power for their shields. But with auxiliary or maneuvering thrusters they stand no chance to outrun the Geth, and while they may be capable of blasting any single Geth ship to shreds with a single hit, there are just too many targets.
Call in the Aliance now, blast the Geth, and they survive.
If you decide to bide your time and let them die, they report that by now their shields are down and that they are taking heavy damage when the Alliance ships arrive.

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Apparently it is not possible to do a hack from half the galaxy away. Or even from the neighbouring system. No hacking via FTL communication. According to the Reaper plan, Sovereign would send a signal to the Keepers, and the Keepers would open the relay into darkspace.

The Keepers did not respond to Sovereign's signal, however. So Sovereign needed someone inside to transfer control, and that was Saren. AND it needed to be on location as the Citadel relay cannot be remote-controlled - otherwise, the Reapers could do that from darkspace any time without ever bothering about Keepers.
And Sovereign needed the Geth to cover its approach before it was safe inside the locked Citadel.
Sovereign is neither omnipotent nor invulnerable. And it knows that.

No, he didn't *need* someone inside to transfer control.  It was just faster.  If you don't think Sovereign could have hacked the system eventually, then EDI is a massive retcon, since she's only 1 consciousness doing a job that Sovereign(millions of minds) apparently cannot accomplish.  EDI is made from Sovereign.  Sovereign is still more advanced. 

In short you tell me Sovereign didn't even need to be there at the Citadel to gain control of the Citadel relay. So why was it? It does not even blast Turian cruisers left or right, it heads straight for the Council tower. It must be on location to open the relay once Saren has transferred control.

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

You're correct, Sovereign isn't invulnerable, however its' capabilities are unknown.  You have absolutely no idea how strong its' barriers or weapon systems are.  You don't know if the Arcturus fleet could possibly defeat Sovereign as it is.  Vigil only states the Sovereign vs the entire galaxy would lose.  No where does he state how strong they are or give specs on their weapons/shield systems.  You're going in blind against an immensely powerful enemy.  Then you're justifying sacrificing ships to save one that has flat out told you that it's out of the battle either way.

Yet another reason to save the biggest gun on my side while I have the opportunity. The Council will want to get away from the battle as fast as they can, so once the Geth are taken care of they can pick a fast frigate and Get The Hell Out.
Again - while I have no way of knowing what it takes to bring down Sovereign, Sovereign has no way of knowing just how many reinforcements Alliance and Council together can move to the Citadel while I am in control. The Arcturus fleet may just be the tip of the iceberg as far as it can tell. The longer it stays, the worse it gets. 

Back to the original question: I advised the fleet to save the Council and the Destiny Ascension because it felt the right thing to do, both from tactical and strategic evaluation. 'Nuff said.

Modifié par Wildecker, 24 mars 2010 - 07:35 .

[Ahglock]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

You're correct, I misremembered the quote.  Though it's not 'Liara' It's 'Whoever you added to the squad second'.  If you picked Liara first and Wrex second, Wrex will say the 'Bigger than Humanity' line and Liara will state "Exactly, the Council must be sacrificed for the greater good."

I still don't read "This is bigger than humanity!" to mean save the Council, as your other squadmate states, this is bigger than anything in the galaxy, and the Council must be sacrificed for the greater good.

That is how i remember it as well, and how I interpreted the statements.  To me that is basically saying, hey player you don't have any of the tactical info, the character do.  They are telling you the best tactic is to ignore the council, but hey the happy ending is the save the council choice, how do you want to play it. 

[CmdrFenix83]

Wildecker wrote...

Hello? Did you even bother to listen to their distress call? "Main drive is offline. Kinetic barriers at 40%." Not a word about weapons, and a kinetic barrier IS a mass effect field. They have power for their shields. But with auxiliary or maneuvering thrusters they stand no chance to outrun the Geth, and while they may be capable of blasting any single Geth ship to shreds with a single hit, there are just too many targets.
Call in the Aliance now, blast the Geth, and they survive.
If you decide to bide your time and let them die, they report that by now their shields are down and that they are taking heavy damage when the Alliance ships arrive.

I was going to aruge this further, but there's no point.  The fact remains that the Destiny Ascension doesn't help you in the battle.  Make up whatever justification you like for saving it, but the ship is useless in the current battle against Sovereign.

Yet another reason to save the biggest gun on my side while I have the opportunity. The Council will want to get away from the battle as fast as they can, so once the Geth are taken care of they can pick a fast frigate and Get The Hell Out.
Again - while I have no way of knowing what it takes to bring down Sovereign, Sovereign has no way of knowing just how many reinforcements Alliance and Council together can move to the Citadel while I am in control. The Arcturus fleet may just be the tip of the iceberg as far as it can tell. The longer it stays, the worse it gets. 

Back to the original question: I advised the fleet to save the Council and the Destiny Ascension because it felt the right thing to do, both from tactical and strategic evaluation. 'Nuff said.

Based on an assumption that a useless ship would help in the battle.  Proven wrong after-the-fact.  Morally and politically, yes, it's the right move.  Tactically and logically, no, it's not.

[Mnemnosyne]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Koyasha wrote...

Who says it is meaningless since they argue depending on where they happen to be standing, literally.  Whoever is to Shepard's right (viewer's left) will always say to save the Ascension.  Whoever is to his left (viewer's right) will always say to sacrifice it.  Always.

No one advocates saving it.  One tells you to sacrifice them for the greater good, the other says literally, "This is bigger than the Council."

Liara usually says  "This is bigger than humanity"

You're correct, I misremembered the quote.  Though it's not 'Liara' It's 'Whoever you added to the squad second'.  If you picked Liara first and Wrex second, Wrex will say the 'Bigger than Humanity' line and Liara will state "Exactly, the Council must be sacrificed for the greater good."

I still don't read "This is bigger than humanity!" to mean save the Council, as your other squadmate states, this is bigger than anything in the galaxy, and the Council must be sacrificed for the greater good.

I can understand perceiving it that way, but it's really structured the other way.  The one arguing to abandon the Ascension usually says something close to, "You'd sacrifice human lives to save the council?" to which the other responds something like "This is bigger than humanity." because they are disagreeing with the first opinion that you should not sacrifice human lives to save the council.  This is made even more clear by their lines after you make the choice - whoever was arguing to save the council will give a concerned "a sacrifice for the greater good?  I only hope it is not in vain." sort of line if you choose to abandon them, while the one that was arguing to abandon them will hope that it won't cost the battle, or something like that (I forget any particular examples of the line).

It's like this with every decision in the game that the party members give an opinion on - they have interchangeable opinions because each decision seems to be designed so that one party member will advocate for it, and the other will advocate against.

Modifié par Koyasha, 25 mars 2010 - 03:38 .

[Daurf815]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Wildecker wrote...

Hello? Did you even bother to listen to their distress call? "Main drive is offline. Kinetic barriers at 40%." Not a word about weapons, and a kinetic barrier IS a mass effect field. They have power for their shields. But with auxiliary or maneuvering thrusters they stand no chance to outrun the Geth, and while they may be capable of blasting any single Geth ship to shreds with a single hit, there are just too many targets.
Call in the Aliance now, blast the Geth, and they survive.
If you decide to bide your time and let them die, they report that by now their shields are down and that they are taking heavy damage when the Alliance ships arrive.

I was going to aruge this further, but there's no point.  The fact remains that the Destiny Ascension doesn't help you in the battle.  Make up whatever justification you like for saving it, but the ship is useless in the current battle against Sovereign.

Yet another reason to save the biggest gun on my side while I have the opportunity. The Council will want to get away from the battle as fast as they can, so once the Geth are taken care of they can pick a fast frigate and Get The Hell Out.
Again - while I have no way of knowing what it takes to bring down Sovereign, Sovereign has no way of knowing just how many reinforcements Alliance and Council together can move to the Citadel while I am in control. The Arcturus fleet may just be the tip of the iceberg as far as it can tell. The longer it stays, the worse it gets. 

Back to the original question: I advised the fleet to save the Council and the Destiny Ascension because it felt the right thing to do, both from tactical and strategic evaluation. 'Nuff said.

Based on an assumption that a useless ship would help in the battle.  Proven wrong after-the-fact.  Morally and politically, yes, it's the right move.  Tactically and logically, no, it's not.

The Ascension is a long range firing ship.

for all you know it was off-screen shooting the **** out of sov.

Also when making the decision the player doesn't know if the ship will help or not, but it IS the biggest gun out there besides sov...and helping it would allow the citadel fleet to help out with sov...an obvious choice