230 réponses à ce sujet

[Lemonwizard]

Regarding the why is Shepard deciding, it's the same reason EVERY decision that logically is somebody else's business is deferred to Shepard - sacrificing a tiny amount of story continuity for the sake of giving the player control. It's not justified nor should you expect it to be.





I believe saving the council is the more tactically sound decision, not because of the council, but because saving the council means defeating the Geth fleet. If you were to just fly around and go for sovereign (who's able to take on the alliance fleet single handedly and STILL give them a run for their money), the Alliance would be screwed 2 minutes later once the Geth finish off the Destiny Ascenscion and are now fully available to flank them.



Killing Sovereign is clearly more important than saving the council, but letting the Geth fleet just destroy the citadel fleet and then come kill you from behind while you're in the middle of battling sovereign just seems stupid when, while the citadel is still closed ANYWAY, you can defeat the Geth, save a few citadel cruisers who can support you on sovereign, and be free to face off against him without the worry of it receiving considerable assistance from the Geth.





It's obvious that they go around at the start, but the Geth know Sovereign is the key to the battle just as much as you do. It would be utterly foolish to assume they're not going to come after you. Frankly, Sovereign is so much more important than the council I would fully expect the Geth to have several cruisers simply stop killing the DA and let the council escape to ensure that the fifth fleet can't take out Sovereign. They're screwed when the reaper invasion comes anyway.

[CmdrFenix83]

Vaenier wrote...

Devide and counquer. You have soverign trapped inside the closed citadel, unable to aid the Geth outside. you take out all geth outside before opening up the arms and using the combined firepower of the alliance and citadel fleets on the single ship...

You even bother thinking this through yet?

Dont forget that just because Soverign is dead doesnt mean the geth cant open the relay. You have to remove all enemies to make sure no Reapers visit from dark space.

Please dont make me rewrite the entire situation out because you keep overlooking parts... i am getting tired of having to explain every single little detail.

You're assuming that Sovereign cannot get control of the systems again.  Vigil even says the file will give Shepard *temporary* control of the Citadel's systems.  You have a timelimit here.  You're justifying sacrificing ships because you believe Sovereign is no threat.  That's made up.  There's a reason everything in-game tells you that you have to focus on him, that he's the threat, etc.  Justify your stance with actual, in-game information that you had up to the point of making this decision.

[Raphael diSanto]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Raphael diSanto wrote...

Eh, the game's (both games are, really) full of situations like that, asking Shepard to make the big decisions when maybe he shouldn't be. I guess it's supposed to empower us as gamers, or something.

Why should I have to decide what to do with the last remaining Rachni, for example? All the comms are turned back on, can't I just call the council and let them decide?

I agree.  I think it's dumb that Shepard makes many of these choices.  Rachni was indeed a great example.  Comms work just fine, and the Queen's in a giant jar, she's not going anywhere.  Have Joker fire up the FTL comms and ask the Council to make the decision.

Yeah. It's all to give players the illusion of making important decisions that technically their -characters- wouldn't actually be making.

Still, it's all fun

[Speakeasy13]

monkeycamoran wrote...

Speakeasy13 wrote...
I agree. But at least the Council has demonstrated a bigger degree of selflessness and care to the welfare of all galactic citizen than the alliance; that and the Council is made up of 3 (4 now) races, so it's still better than 1 race leading the entire galaxy.

Sorry, but I disagree. The Council seeks to preserve itself, its monopoly on intergalactic power, and the order it imposes above all else. The Council never protected human citizens in the Traverse at the risk of war. The Council also voted against investigating missing colonies near the Terminus Systems. You had to take the initiative for the first and with Cerberus's help for the second. There's also the Spectres, who are exempt from local prosecution and answers only to the Council. These are the same people who was willing to turn a blind eye on Saren so long as the job gets done.

The Council itself isn't tyrannical, but it's aristocratic and elitist.

You didn't exactly disagree with me with anything. I don't deny the Coucil wasn't any of those things you mentioned, I'm saying the Alliance is even worse. And that is quite evident: you'd receive as little, if not less aid from a human council than the one you saved. So it's really just the better of the two evil.

And then again, at least the order the Council EMPOSES tends to provide for a stable environment and reasonable equality amongst its people. I just don't think humanity, a race proven to be so selfish, greedy and ethnocentric, can do any better.

[tertium organum]

I saved them because they were the galactic leaders, had enough experience and were integral ( I thought) to making sure there is some unity in a galaxy under the threat of extinction. Humans were upstarts. We just got a seat in the council, we're facing a threat that can wipe every species out so it's a bit ludicrous to wipe out the council and raise the ire of species whose help you'll need. It's all moot though. My renegade play-through's were apparently more logical since the council are total idiots in ME2. In retrospect, the paragon choice was a waste of time - human lives must take priority over idiots.



In ME1, I considered the political and moral consequences and what it meant for the galaxy as a whole - just as Shepard is used a s symbol in ME2, so the council is for the galaxy and being the reason they die just didn't seem that great for relations with other species when we're all under attack. Needless to say, this entire thought process was irrelevant. If I'd have known they're total imbeciles every import would be renegade. Just a rather stupid plot line.

[binaryemperor]

I saved the council because to be honest, the council may seem incompetent, but they've been running things for thousands of years. Humanity has been in the picture for about... 35 years...

I trust aliens to run the galaxy properly. I also think humanity benefits more from serving grateful aliens than ruling pissed off ones. But that's just my humble opinion. No need to spread it around or anything.

Besides, having let the council die once before, I'm well aware that the human council is just as, if not more worthless than the old council.

Modifié par binaryemperor, 24 mars 2010 - 03:13 .

[FlyinElk212]

Again, so I could kill them myself for being the dumbasses they were.

[incinerator950]

I wanted to save one of the most powerful ships the Asari Navy has, plus I wanted to take out the Geth Fleet so they couldn't flank the Alliance when fighting Sovereign (which doesn't happen, regardless).

Saving the Council was a minor objective, had they not been on the Ascension, and say on some Turian Cruiser, I wouldn't really care.

Modifié par incinerator950, 24 mars 2010 - 03:17 .

[Goodwood]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

Making things up? Of course I am. Nowhere does it state how the battle actually played out, and the cutscenes we do see are scant in that regard. The only things we know for certain during the first game is that the Council fleet are being battered by Sovereign and the geth, unable to prevent it from entering the station prior to closing the ward arms (which Saren did, not Sovereign). Then the Alliance comes in and, depending on your choice, smashes the geth line to save the Ascension, taking casualties in the process, or loitering outside the engagement zone until the arms open. Maybe we're watching different cutscenes, or maybe I'm missing something, but I didn't see the Alliance fleet going around anybody.

My whole stance of citing sound tactical doctrine is based off of educated guesswork, to this I freely admit. Yes, the choice has to be made in a split second, I'm not arguing that, and yes, the choices aren't written all that well. But the OP asked why I saved the Council, so I gave my reasons.

You watch the Alliance fleet flying laterally from the battle.  Battle in front of us, Normandy flying to the left side of the screen.  There's absolutely nothing here that states that the Alliance fleet engaged the Geth once.  Not once.  So why would you assume they did? 

Shepard:  "Don't waste ships, we have to focus on Sovereign!"
Joker:  "Okay!"  ::Waits five minutes for ward arms to open before plowing through the Geth fleet, sustaining casualties just as badly as they would if they had gone in earlier.::
Shepard:  "WTF?!  Why didn't you go around them?  You're in space!  Literally infinite directions to go around them, and you go *through*?!  How did you graduate from the Academy?!"

Now who's making things up?

Okay, so we both agree that the game doesn't give much details insofar as tactics. I can almost forgive them this due to Mass Effect being an RPG and not a tactical simulator; one cannot help but wonder how the story could have been better had BioWare employed a military advisor.

Thank you for admitting your lack of military training or knowledge -- with all due respect, that explains a lot. Though I've not served in the military either (physically disqualified), I have engaged in the researching of military terms, tactics and history for nearly half my life (and I'm thirty years old). Not saying that this qualifies me to make command descisions, or even to give advice in such situations, but it does give me perspective that, unfortunately, you lack.

The American Civil War went on longer than it should have due in no small part to the personality and tactics of General George B. McClellen. He was great at politicking both his plans and himself, and was able to convince the average soldiers in the Army of the Potomic to like him. Unfortunately, in combat he had a bad habit of hesitating, of holding back in fear that the Confederate armies opposing him had hidden reserves that could be used to destroy his army if he made the slightest mistake. Were it not for this hesitancy, the Battle of Antitem would have been a resounding Union victory, instead of a bloody stalemate. The Penninsular Campaign before that would have been more successful were McClellen more aggressive or more willing to accept casualties as an inevitable result of military action.

I bring this up because the "concentrate on Sovereign"  option, in retrospect, strikes me as a noncommittal response, a fear of instigating action. It is also an axiom of command that when you attack, you must go forward with all you have, you must commit yourself fully, because if you hold anything back, you risk becoming divided and disorganized. Robert E. Lee turned the Battle of Gettysburg into a devastating loss, instead of a skirmish-and-maneuver that could have put his army between the Federals and Washington on favorable ground in large part because of this. After making the unwise choice to attack the already-entrenched Army of the Potomic on the second day, he was not able to bring all of his forces to bear. Longstreet's corps had yet to arrive in full, and he was sending in formations that had already taken casualties during Buford's stand on the first day. The move to attack was disorganized and piecemeal, with Hood and McLaws going in much later than planned, and separated. I don't think that it is necessary to point out the hugeness of the mistake Lee made on the third day.

To close out this wall of text, let's just say that the difference between a good commander and a bad one involves the use of one's instinct as much as sound logic.

[CmdrFenix83]

@Lemonwizard

The Destiny Ascension is not the only ship in the Citadel fleet.  Their fleet is on the losing end of the battle, nor does the Alliance wipe them out before going after Sovereign.  All your decision to save the Ascension does is commit the Alliance forces to battle, and then force them to withdraw moments later when the Ward arms are opened, exposing their flanks to the Geth they're now engaged with. 

The decision literally boils down to "Engage now, save the Ascension at the cost of Alliance ships, then move in after Sovereign after the arms open,"  "Wait for the Ward arms to open, avoid the Geth, then focus on Sovereign,"  or the full-renegade one of giving the Council the finger and laughing(can't tell you the actual dialogue for that, since I've *never* taken the choice.

That's all we know from in-game information. 

[Sigma Tauri]

Speakeasy13 wrote...
You didn't exactly disagree with me with anything. I don't deny the Coucil wasn't any of those things you mentioned, I'm saying the Alliance is even worse. And that is quite evident: you'd receive as little, if not less aid from a human council than the one you saved. So it's really just the better of the two evil.

And then again, at least the order the Council EMPOSES tends to provide for a stable environment and reasonable equality amongst its people. I just don't think humanity, a race proven to be so selfish, greedy and ethnocentric, can do any better.

The all-human or human-led council wouldn't see you. The old Council would only symbolically give you a title. Neither really helped you. The paragon situation didn't burn bridges, but they really weren't that helpful in the firswt game either.They just want you out of their fringe/tentacles/horns.

And although I agree that the Council does provide a stable environment, it also made the Council races complacent. Humanity's entrance into the galactic community broke a 1300 year peace, and the turians found themselves challenged by human war tactics. It's also not equal. As I said, it's aristocratic. Council races look down on the volus, in spite of their economic contributions to galactic society.

Still, it's not an either-or situation on who should dominate the galaxy. There's a third option: self-determination. The geth understood it, and they're right. The quarians survived even after being driven from their homeworld. The krogan will eventually learn it under Wrex.

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 24 mars 2010 - 03:30 .

[Vaenier]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Devide and counquer. You have soverign trapped inside the closed citadel, unable to aid the Geth outside. you take out all geth outside before opening up the arms and using the combined firepower of the alliance and citadel fleets on the single ship...

You even bother thinking this through yet?

Dont forget that just because Soverign is dead doesnt mean the geth cant open the relay. You have to remove all enemies to make sure no Reapers visit from dark space.

Please dont make me rewrite the entire situation out because you keep overlooking parts... i am getting tired of having to explain every single little detail.

You're assuming that Sovereign cannot get control of the systems again.  Vigil even says the file will give Shepard *temporary* control of the Citadel's systems.  You have a timelimit here.  You're justifying sacrificing ships because you believe Sovereign is no threat.  That's made up.  There's a reason everything in-game tells you that you have to focus on him, that he's the threat, etc.  Justify your stance with actual, in-game information that you had up to the point of making this decision.

I am not sacrificing ships, I am gaining more firepower.
I know I have limited control of the station, I never said I needed control in the first place. What I said was Soverign was unable to access the systems at all because of the Protean virus. The Citadel doesnt listen to a word he says. If all he needed was time to hack it, then why not just set up a virtual network through the comm systems instead of his crap bumrush plan...

At that moment in the battle, he was zero threat to the galaxy. He had no inside man. He had no access to the stations systems. He had no way to get out to the battle. He was useless.

And now you are annoying me for having to remind you of obvious plot points like the prothean virus that caused the entire game in the first place...

[Lemonwizard]

incinerator950 wrote...
 I wanted to take out the Geth Fleet so they couldn't flank the Alliance when fighting Sovereign (which doesn't happen, regardless).

Just like taking losing too many ships against the geth to finish Sov doesn't happen if you DO save them. Sovereign goes down fine either way, we're talking about if you were in Shepard's shoes and didn't know that in advance.

[CmdrFenix83]

@Goodwood

Admirals and Generals are given their commands based on experience in combat.  Any research you may have done gives you as little merit to assess the situation as I do.  There's no point in continuing this discussion it seems.  All I based my choice on was the available in-game knowledge. 

Sovereign will take over the Citadel in time.  His defenses and weapon system potency is unknown but it's a safe assumption to believe them both to be immense.  No guarantee of success, even with the whole Arcturus Fleet.  Cannot justify sacrificing ships in this situation... especially not on the basis of *if* we win politics.

The pure paragon option is literally risking success in favor of sparing a critically damaged ship with the Council on board.  Failure means galactic extinction.

[Goodwood]

Don't worry about him, Vaenier. By his own admission he knows nothing of military tactics and strategy.



That is a joke...

[NICKjnp]

I'm not a space racist.

[CmdrFenix83]

Vaenier wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Devide and counquer. You have soverign trapped inside the closed citadel, unable to aid the Geth outside. you take out all geth outside before opening up the arms and using the combined firepower of the alliance and citadel fleets on the single ship...

You even bother thinking this through yet?

Dont forget that just because Soverign is dead doesnt mean the geth cant open the relay. You have to remove all enemies to make sure no Reapers visit from dark space.

Please dont make me rewrite the entire situation out because you keep overlooking parts... i am getting tired of having to explain every single little detail.

You're assuming that Sovereign cannot get control of the systems again.  Vigil even says the file will give Shepard *temporary* control of the Citadel's systems.  You have a timelimit here.  You're justifying sacrificing ships because you believe Sovereign is no threat.  That's made up.  There's a reason everything in-game tells you that you have to focus on him, that he's the threat, etc.  Justify your stance with actual, in-game information that you had up to the point of making this decision.

I am not sacrificing ships, I am gaining more firepower.
I know I have limited control of the station, I never said I needed control in the first place. What I said was Soverign was unable to access the systems at all because of the Protean virus. The Citadel doesnt listen to a word he says. If all he needed was time to hack it, then why not just set up a virtual network through the comm systems instead of his crap bumrush plan...

At that moment in the battle, he was zero threat to the galaxy. He had no inside man. He had no access to the stations systems. He had no way to get out to the battle. He was useless.

And now you are annoying me for having to remind you of obvious plot points like the prothean virus that caused the entire game in the first place...

You're makign things up again.  You aren't gaining anything by moving in early.  The Citadel fleet does not help you, the Geth are not obliterated by your moving in early.  All you did, was cost yourself 8 cruisers to save the Ascension, a crippled vessel that is in no shape to keep fighting.  Even the choice itself is "Save the Council."  It does not say "Take your time obliterating the Geth fleet first, since Sovereign is an impotent tool."

Eliminating Saren and using Vigil's data file does not mean you've won.  Sovereign can hack the station, and will do so sooner or later, or did you not notice that tech abilities and hacking require zero physical connection?  Vigil told you flat out that it will give you *temporary* control of the station. 

The *only* thing the Protheans did to the Citadel was switch the systems so that the Relay would ignore Sovereign's signal... signal, from deep space.  A little communication burst that would turn the Relay on.  He's in direct contact with the station.  If you honestly believe that Sovereign is that pointless in the whole situation, then we're definitely done here.

Modifié par CmdrFenix83, 24 mars 2010 - 03:37 .

[Goodwood]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

@Goodwood

Admirals and Generals are given their commands based on experience in combat.  Any research you may have done gives you as little merit to assess the situation as I do.  There's no point in continuing this discussion it seems.  All I based my choice on was the available in-game knowledge.

Read my post again. I was up-front and crystal clear about that very issue.

Sovereign will take over the Citadel in time.  His defenses and weapon system potency is unknown but it's a safe assumption to believe them both to be immense.  No guarantee of success, even with the whole Arcturus Fleet.  Cannot justify sacrificing ships in this situation... especially not on the basis of *if* we win politics.

The pure paragon option is literally risking success in favor of sparing a critically damaged ship with the Council on board.  Failure means galactic extinction.

And yet, the paragon option doesn't result in galactic extinction. Yes, Sovvy will eventually take over -- evetually -- but not from outside. It needs its inside man, Saren, and tries to get it back by activating its "essence" through the implants Saren had accepted. Shepard then kills this Sovereign/Saren creature, and this results on Sovereign's kinetic barriers dropping, leaving it ripe for destruction, and the menace over...for now.

Modifié par Goodwood, 24 mars 2010 - 03:36 .

[binaryemperor]

To be honest, if it was not a game and I really was Shep, I probably would have simply focused on Sovereign.

[incinerator950]

Lemonwizard wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...
 I wanted to take out the Geth Fleet so they couldn't flank the Alliance when fighting Sovereign (which doesn't happen, regardless).

Just like taking losing too many ships against the geth to finish Sov doesn't happen if you DO save them. Sovereign goes down fine either way, we're talking about if you were in Shepard's shoes and didn't know that in advance.

I know, I still would save the Destiny Ascension.  Not really caring about the Council, but trying to salvage/save the Council's most powerful Dreadnought seems useful, plus, the Geth seem to be a large enough threat to remove before attacking Sovereign.

[Pacifien]

Has anyone actually been persuaded to switch from one viewpoint to another when it comes to the decision to save the Destiny Ascension?



For all the posts I've read in favor of saving the Destiny Ascension, I've never felt compelled to change my mind on the matter. The fact that someone could write a novel detailing their reasoning and my reaction is to stare blankly forward and say "no, I don't buy it," makes me fairly confident that all my talk about three dimensional space combat wouldn't be any more convincing in retaliation.

[Lemonwizard]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

@Lemonwizard

The Destiny Ascension is not the only ship in the Citadel fleet.  Their fleet is on the losing end of the battle, nor does the Alliance wipe them out before going after Sovereign.  All your decision to save the Ascension does is commit the Alliance forces to battle, and then force them to withdraw moments later when the Ward arms are opened, exposing their flanks to the Geth they're now engaged with. 

The decision literally boils down to "Engage now, save the Ascension at the cost of Alliance ships, then move in after Sovereign after the arms open,"  "Wait for the Ward arms to open, avoid the Geth, then focus on Sovereign,"  or the full-renegade one of giving the Council the finger and laughing(can't tell you the actual dialogue for that, since I've *never* taken the choice.

That's all we know from in-game information. 

Of course it's not, and it's also surely not the only thing that the Geth are shooting at either. I never considered the save the council option to be focusing only on the Destiny Ascension, rather "the citadel fleet as a whole is about to be trounced, will you help them out or will you wait to join the battle?". Though there's a clear focus in assaulting the ships that are about to take out the DA over random turian cruiser number 6, my impression of the way the battle was going is: All the geth are fighting the citadel forces outside in one big battle, Sovereign is alone inside. I chose to win the battle outside rather than allowing it to be lost and giving the Geth a free pass to devastate my exposed flank while I took on sovereign.


Even doing enough damage to give the citadel forces the ability to win on their own or hold them off for 10 more minutes would make all the difference in the world in my ability to finish sovereign.

[CmdrFenix83]

Goodwood wrote...

And yet, the paragon option doesn't result in galactic extinction. Yes, Sovvy will eventually take over -- evetually -- but not from outside. It needs its inside man, Saren, and tries to get it back by activating its "essence" through the implants Saren had accepted. Shepard then kills this Sovereign/Saren creature, and this results on Sovereign's kinetic barriers dropping, leaving it ripe for destruction, and the menace over...for now.

First off, Metagaming.  You cannot know before hand that the paragon option will result in success unless you're using knowledge that Shepard does not have.

Nothing says that he needed the insider.  Saren and the Geth were tools to get in close without being destroyed, and so that Saren can seal up the station and protect Sovereign with the Ward arms while giving control of the station to Sovereign.  Without Saren, it'll take longer, but absolutely nothing states that he absolutely requires an individual at the controls.  In fact, Vigil stating that the data file he gives you will only be temporary proves otherwise. 

Sovereign will take it over again on his own without needing tiny hands.  Hacking isn't done through physical contact.  The Citadel isn't a closed network, they set it up so he can send a signal from anywhere in the relay network and the Keepers would switch on the relay.  All Sovereign has to do is get enough control of the Citadel to get it to tell the Keepers to do their job.  That's it.  Even Geth can be hacked temporarily, all Sovereign needs is a second. 

[Vaenier]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

You're makign things up again.  You aren't gaining anything by moving in early.  The Citadel fleet does not help you, the Geth are not obliterated by your moving in early.  All you did, was cost yourself 8 cruisers to save the Ascension, a crippled vessel that is in no shape to keep fighting.

Umm, now you are using meta game knowlage and BioWares poor writing of the battle... Try to keep it to when the decision was being made and LOGICAL outcome of choices...

Eliminating Saren and using Vigil's data file does not mean you've won.  Sovereign can hack the station, and will do so sooner or later, or did you not notice that tech abilities and hacking require zero physical connection?  Vigil told you flat out that it will give you *temporary* control of the station.

Didnt I just say that you having control meant nothing? let me check... "I know I have limited control of the station, I never said I needed
control in the first place. If all he needed was time to hack it, then why not just set up a virtual
network through the comm systems instead of his crap bumrush plan..." He needs someone at the control center to manualy activate the relay.

I give up, you didnt even read what I said...

Modifié par Vaenier, 24 mars 2010 - 03:46 .

[Goodwood]

Lemonwizard wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

@Lemonwizard

The Destiny Ascension is not the only ship in the Citadel fleet.  Their fleet is on the losing end of the battle, nor does the Alliance wipe them out before going after Sovereign.  All your decision to save the Ascension does is commit the Alliance forces to battle, and then force them to withdraw moments later when the Ward arms are opened, exposing their flanks to the Geth they're now engaged with. 

The decision literally boils down to "Engage now, save the Ascension at the cost of Alliance ships, then move in after Sovereign after the arms open,"  "Wait for the Ward arms to open, avoid the Geth, then focus on Sovereign,"  or the full-renegade one of giving the Council the finger and laughing(can't tell you the actual dialogue for that, since I've *never* taken the choice.

That's all we know from in-game information. 

Of course it's not, and it's also surely not the only thing that the Geth are shooting at either. I never considered the save the council option to be focusing only on the Destiny Ascension, rather "the citadel fleet as a whole is about to be trounced, will you help them out or will you wait to join the battle?". Though there's a clear focus in assaulting the ships that are about to take out the DA over random turian cruiser number 6, my impression of the way the battle was going is: All the geth are fighting the citadel forces outside in one big battle, Sovereign is alone inside. I chose to win the battle outside rather than allowing it to be lost and giving the Geth a free pass to devastate my exposed flank while I took on sovereign.

Even doing enough damage to give the citadel forces the ability to win on their own or hold them off for 10 more minutes would make all the difference in the world in my ability to finish sovereign.

And this is precisely why you always send in your reinforcements without delay. If you hesitate, the enemy will be able to see what's coming and react, making your relief effort that much more difficult; the longer you wait, the more prepared the enemy will be. It's like in American football; by picking the right spot and attacking with all haste and vigor, you can blitz the enemy line and score the win.