230 réponses à ce sujet

[CmdrFenix83]

Lemonwizard wrote...

That's a ridiculous assertion. Everyone involved knows sovereign is the key to the battle. The Geth would not hesitate to just let the DA run away, leave only as few of their ships as needed to keep the other citadel ships occupied and send everything they can spare to assist Sovereign.

You're ignoring the point.  If the Geth were a threat to the Alliance flank, there would still be the option of closing the Ward Arms again behind them to allow the Arcturus fleet to focus on Sovereign.  The option isn't there, because the Geth are not a threat to the Alliance fleet unless the Alliance fleet is ordered to engage them. 

Metagaming or completely in-character, there is ZERO threat from the Geth fleet unless you yourself decide to have the Alliance ships engage them.  Don't know how many times I need to repeat that.  With Shepard in control of the Ward Arms, the Geth are merely an obstacle in the way.  You can plow through, or go around.  Each has positives and negatives.  However, a negative of saving the Council is that you might not have the firepower needed to kill Sovereign. 

If it had been necessary, I wouldn't have hesitated to sacrifice the entirity of both the Arturus and Citadel fleets to stop Sovereign.  I think some people here are severely underestimating Sovereign's destructive power, especially considering that, at the time, we have no idea what the extent his shielding/weapons are capable of.

Modifié par CmdrFenix83, 24 mars 2010 - 05:40 .

[Lemonwizard]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

That's a ridiculous assertion. Everyone involved knows sovereign is the key to the battle. The Geth would not hesitate to just let the DA run away, leave only as few of their ships as needed to keep the other citadel ships occupied and send everything they can spare to assist Sovereign.

You're ignoring the point.  If the Geth were a threat to the Alliance flank, there would still be the option of closing the Ward Arms again behind them to allow the Arcturus fleet to focus on Sovereign.  The option isn't there, because the Geth are not a threat to the Alliance fleet unless the Alliance fleet is ordered to engage them. 

Metagaming or completely in-character, there is ZERO threat from the Geth fleet unless you yourself decide to have the Alliance ships engage them.  Don't know how many times I need to repeat that.  With Shepard in control of the Ward Arms, the Geth are merely an obstacle in the way.  You can plow through, or go around.  Each has positives and negatives.  However, a negative of saving the Council is that you might not have the firepower needed to kill Sovereign. 

If it had been necessary, I wouldn't have hesitated to sacrifice the entirity of both the Arturus and Citadel fleets to stop Sovereign.  I think some people here are severely underestimating Sovereign's destructive power, especially considering that, at the time, we have no idea what the extent his shielding/weapons are capable of.

The game doesn't give that option because deciding battle strategy is not part of the game. You win the battle no matter what happens. We're talking about a hypothetical situation here, where we take the "you win no matter what" is taken out of the equation. We're not given the option of closing the arms again because Bioware wanted didn't want to bother giving us 6 options. Or, if you're feeling storyline justifications are necessary, Vigil's datafile is temporary and there's no guarantee Shepard will have full control of the citadel systems long enough for that.


Zero threat from the Geth fleet? There are only two ways that that could be true. The first would be that the Citadel fleet is giving the Geth so much trouble that there's no way they could possibly spare any ships to assist sovereign without their line crumbling. If this were the case, why does the Destiny Ascension need your help at all? The second would be if the Geth were really, really stupid. I don't think making a strategy on the assumption that your enemy is going to be really stupid is sound military planning.




Closing the wards behinds us is not given as an option because Bioware wanted this to be an either-or situation, not a list of 10 possible battle strategies. But I don't see how you could possibly believe the Geth fleet are NO threat at all.

[Pacifien]

The logical thing would be for Shepard to open the Citadel arms right away. The only wait involved is the time it takes for the ward arms to widen enough for ships to get through.

There isn't enough information given during the game to figure out a strategy beyond that point. You don't know where the Citadel fleet is, you don't know how many Geth are left, you don't know what lies between you and the Citadel. The only thing you know is that the Destiny Ascension is severely crippled. Would you seriously try to save it if the Geth forces outnumbered the Alliance 10 to 1?

Are the Geth attacking the Destiny Ascension even the ones on the battlezone that are the greatest threat to you? If you were worried about being flanked, you have to consider you're going to be flanked from all sides, not just behind you. The only way you can be sure you're not flanked from all sides is to use the Citadel itself as cover once it opens.

You have to consider what the goal of the entire battle is. Is it outright victory, the enemy is decimated? Or is prevent the Citadel Relay from activating at all costs? Or is it prevent the Citadel Relay from activating but only in a responsible manner?

Because the game severely lacks in information about the battle, anything I or anyone else can say is conjecture. It's simply a choice about the personality of your Shepard. Are you ruthless? Are you pragmatic? Are you an idealist? The battle situation is going to fit how you want it to fit.

[Pacifien]

Lemonwizard wrote...
Zero threat from the Geth fleet? There are only two ways that that could be true. The first would be that the Citadel fleet is giving the Geth so much trouble that there's no way they could possibly spare any ships to assist sovereign without their line crumbling. If this were the case, why does the Destiny Ascension need your help at all?

The Destiny Ascension needs help because it's dying. The fact that the Citadel fleet hasn't helped it doesn't mean the Citadel fleet is decimated. Just as it's possible the Geth can't spare any ships to assist Sovereign, the Citadel fleet might not be able to spare any ships to assist the Destiny Ascension.

[LebatomiBeni]

Barquiel wrote...

- the DA is the most powerful ship of the Council races; it could be useful
- I save 10000 crewmembers
- The geth worship Sovereign, the fifth fleet is going to attack Sovereign...I think it's a poor tactical decision to ignore them
- I ensure political stability
- the asari councilor is hot

This. (The turian councilor ain't bad either >.>)

Also, despite their unwillingness to cooperate now, I truly believe they will come around later and prove very useful. One of the reasons why I chose to get my spectre status reinstated.

[CmdrFenix83]

Lemonwizard wrote...

The game doesn't give that option because deciding battle strategy is not part of the game. You win the battle no matter what happens. We're talking about a hypothetical situation here, where we take the "you win no matter what" is taken out of the equation. We're not given the option of closing the arms again because Bioware wanted didn't want to bother giving us 6 options. Or, if you're feeling storyline justifications are necessary, Vigil's datafile is temporary and there's no guarantee Shepard will have full control of the citadel systems long enough for that.

Zero threat from the Geth fleet? There are only two ways that that could be true. The first would be that the Citadel fleet is giving the Geth so much trouble that there's no way they could possibly spare any ships to assist sovereign without their line crumbling. If this were the case, why does the Destiny Ascension need your help at all? The second would be if the Geth were really, really stupid. I don't think making a strategy on the assumption that your enemy is going to be really stupid is sound military planning.

Closing the wards behinds us is not given as an option because Bioware wanted this to be an either-or situation, not a list of 10 possible battle strategies. But I don't see how you could possibly believe the Geth fleet are NO threat at all.

Again, the Geth are engaged with the Citadel fleet.  They would be decimated if they all decided to turn away from the battle and attempt to chase the Alliance fleet that snuck around them and into the middle of the station.

The Destiny Ascension needs help because it's an enormous target that screams SHOOT ME FIRST! Focusing fire on the biggest threat is not a new strategy.  

The way I see the Geth fleet is that they're busy with the Citadel fleet.  Either they will be destroyed ignoring the remnants of it attempting in vain to help their 'god' (Though if they do believe him to be a god, why would they need to help him?  Wouldn't he be invincible in their eyes?), or they will be stalled by the Citadel fleet attempting to win the battle. 

If the Alliance fleet cannot beat Sovereign with their entire force before the Citadel fleet is wiped out, then you've already lost anyway, and saving the Ascension would have made the battle even more futile.  After defeating Sovereign, we can come out and mop up the remnants of the Geth fleet.  As your squadmates state, the Council would be "Sacrificed for the greater good."

[Lemonwizard]

Pacifien wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...
Zero threat from the Geth fleet? There are only two ways that that could be true. The first would be that the Citadel fleet is giving the Geth so much trouble that there's no way they could possibly spare any ships to assist sovereign without their line crumbling. If this were the case, why does the Destiny Ascension need your help at all?

The Destiny Ascension needs help because it's dying. The fact that the Citadel fleet hasn't helped it doesn't mean the Citadel fleet is decimated. Just as it's possible the Geth can't spare any ships to assist Sovereign, the Citadel fleet might not be able to spare any ships to assist the Destiny Ascension.

If the battle were so close that the Geth couldn't spare any ships to assist Sovereign, then Alliance reinforcements coming in to help the Citadel fleet would mean that the combined force would be able to thoroughly demolish the Geth fleet and then move on to Sovereign with a force that would probably be about the same size as the pre-casualties alliance fleet but now with no worry of getting attacked from behind.

[CmdrFenix83]

Pacifien wrote...

The logical thing would be for Shepard to open the Citadel arms right away. The only wait involved is the time it takes for the ward arms to widen enough for ships to get through.

There isn't enough information given during the game to figure out a strategy beyond that point. You don't know where the Citadel fleet is, you don't know how many Geth are left, you don't know what lies between you and the Citadel. The only thing you know is that the Destiny Ascension is severely crippled. Would you seriously try to save it if the Geth forces outnumbered the Alliance 10 to 1?

Are the Geth attacking the Destiny Ascension even the ones on the battlezone that are the greatest threat to you? If you were worried about being flanked, you have to consider you're going to be flanked from all sides, not just behind you. The only way you can be sure you're not flanked from all sides is to use the Citadel itself as cover once it opens.

You have to consider what the goal of the entire battle is. Is it outright victory, the enemy is decimated? Or is prevent the Citadel Relay from activating at all costs? Or is it prevent the Citadel Relay from activating but only in a responsible manner?

Because the game severely lacks in information about the battle, anything I or anyone else can say is conjecture. It's simply a choice about the personality of your Shepard. Are you ruthless? Are you pragmatic? Are you an idealist? The battle situation is going to fit how you want it to fit.

That was very elloquently stated.  To use your definitions at the end; my main Shepard, while a good, compassionate person, is definitely pragmatic.  Sometimes sacrifices are necessary, and this is a situation where he felt it was.

[Ahglock]

god I wish the choices had actual consequences in the game. Neutral and Renegade are sadly the best choices in the game on a logical level without metagaming the answer. Why, because they tell you its the best tactical solution. They have the tactical information that we only guess about, they are the trained soldiers who know what they are talking about, and they tell you the best choice is to focus on sovereign. saying saving the DA is the better tactical choice is doesn't work, again why because you don't have any information. The "people" who do are the characters in the game, they don't make up facts and arm chair quarterback the situation. They tell you to focus on sovereign. The best reason you have for saving the DA is that joker is sure he can do it, that is awesome, but that doesn't change that it worsens your chance to stop sovereign, as per the information given to you in game and its not even implied information it is explicit.



My preferred ending would have been something like this. I'm not a writer so i am sure bioware could do better etc., but it shows how choices have consequences.



1. Save DA: You save it, awesome but Sovereign escapes to torment you in ME3 as an advance scout. Your forces are in fairly good shape. This is the classic serial answer, the villain dangles the side kick over the lava, do you A save the side kick or B stop the villain. you aren't supposed to get both A&B, except in games you can never lose.



2. Neutral option, you kill sovereign, DA struggles through and makes it when the geth forces peel off to attack you but the alliance forces are decimated while fighting sovereign on there own.



3. Renegade option. you hack DA or, convince the pilot or whatever and it does a suicide run and rams sovereign crippling it, you kill sovereign, you lose DA, alliance forces are in good shape the rest of the fleets are battered.

[Mnemnosyne]

I saved the Ascension based on the knowledge I had at the time because it is the most powerful ship in any of our fleets. Its kinetic barriers were down 40% and the main drive was offline - I presumed it still had maneuvering capability and weapons, so I figured that as soon as it was all clear, it would assist in the battle. Based on the knowledge I had from the distress call, the Ascension would still be able to participate in the battle if it was saved, and I suspected its mass accelerator, more powerful than that of any in the Fifth Fleet, would be most helpful in bringing down Sovereign.



That's something that seems to be forgotten by the 'concentrate on Sovereign' people. The Ascension has the most powerful main gun of any friendly ship. Without knowing Sovereign's capability, it's entirely possible that's the only weapon we have capable of punching through its shields, short of an FTL kamikaze attack (which would have been the simplest way to take out Sovereign - one ship would be lost and that's it).

[CmdrFenix83]

Lemonwizard wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...
Zero threat from the Geth fleet? There are only two ways that that could be true. The first would be that the Citadel fleet is giving the Geth so much trouble that there's no way they could possibly spare any ships to assist sovereign without their line crumbling. If this were the case, why does the Destiny Ascension need your help at all?

The Destiny Ascension needs help because it's dying. The fact that the Citadel fleet hasn't helped it doesn't mean the Citadel fleet is decimated. Just as it's possible the Geth can't spare any ships to assist Sovereign, the Citadel fleet might not be able to spare any ships to assist the Destiny Ascension.

If the battle were so close that the Geth couldn't spare any ships to assist Sovereign, then Alliance reinforcements coming in to help the Citadel fleet would mean that the combined force would be able to thoroughly demolish the Geth fleet and then move on to Sovereign with a force that would probably be about the same size as the pre-casualties alliance fleet but now with no worry of getting attacked from behind.

Assumes you have the time to annihilate all of the Geth before engaging Sovereign, and that you can still defeat him before he has hacked the Citadel and activated the Relay.

Modifié par CmdrFenix83, 24 mars 2010 - 06:13 .

[CmdrFenix83]

Koyasha wrote...

I saved the Ascension based on the knowledge I had at the time because it is the most powerful ship in any of our fleets. Its kinetic barriers were down 40% and the main drive was offline - I presumed it still had maneuvering capability and weapons, so I figured that as soon as it was all clear, it would assist in the battle. Based on the knowledge I had from the distress call, the Ascension would still be able to participate in the battle if it was saved, and I suspected its mass accelerator, more powerful than that of any in the Fifth Fleet, would be most helpful in bringing down Sovereign.

That's something that seems to be forgotten by the 'concentrate on Sovereign' people. The Ascension has the most powerful main gun of any friendly ship. Without knowing Sovereign's capability, it's entirely possible that's the only weapon we have capable of punching through its shields, short of an FTL kamikaze attack (which would have been the simplest way to take out Sovereign - one ship would be lost and that's it).

Main drive offline.  Would seem to tell you flat out that the ship is essentially dead in space. 

Also, using your FTL drive means reducing the ship's mass dramatically.  The impact would be like throwing a grain of sand into a piece of tank armor.  The speed is irrelevant when it has next to zero mass.

[Lemonwizard]

Shandepared wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

If the battle were so close that the Geth couldn't spare any ships to assist Sovereign, then Alliance reinforcements coming in to help the Citadel fleet would mean that the combined force would be able to thoroughly demolish the Geth fleet and then move on to Sovereign with a force that would probably be about the same size as the pre-casualties alliance fleet but now with no worry of getting attacked from behind.

The geth and Citadel fleets are spread out all over the nebula. If you try and wipe them out it will take too long.

It looked to me like they were all pretty much right next to the Citadel, but if that is actually the case, then the ones that are too far out to easily reinforce sovereign could be safely ignored. But the Geth who are right there blasting away at the DA would probably already be within weapons range to attack the Alliance ships if Sovereign were threatened, and you can bet anything you like that they wouldn't hesitate to change targets to take out the guys who are about to kill Sov.

[KainrycKarr]

Seemed like a good idea at the time. I was wrong.

[CmdrFenix83]

Shandepared wrote...

Watch the background during the cinematic; it is pretty clear that there are ships far flung all over the place taking shots at each other. To your other point, we are again getting into territory where we don't know exactly what is going on without meta-gaming. That said, in the scene where the Ascension blows up you see more Citadel ships arriving to engage the geth just as the Ascension is lost.

I mean you have a point there. Goodwood also has a point. So do I and everyone who has argued that the geth aren't really a threat. However the truth of the matter is all of us are speculating. The actual game doesn't tell us very much about the battlefield. The only clue we are given is the characters telling us that saving the Ascension may endanger our ability to destroy Sovereign. Beyond that we're trying to come up with scenarios that would make that assessment valid.

Exactly.  The choice we're presented with is "Sacrifice reinforcements and risk the galaxy to save the Council" or "Save every possible ship to improve chances against Sovereign."

Well, then there's the renegade one, but that one really isn't part of the debate.

[Lemonwizard]

I mean if you put the debate that way, where you assume that the assessment that too many alliance ships would be lost to defeat sovereign if you save the council, then yes I would choose to focus on Sovereign. That's hardly even a question, the council would just die 10 minutes later anyway when a thousand reapers come through the relay and devastate any remaining citadel forces.





I don't think that's the debate we're having, however. Yes we're all speculating....but that's what this topic is is speculation. It's a what if topic. In terms of what actually happens in the game, you win either way (and of the two outcomes of what actually happens I think saving the council is the better choice for the galaxy, as a politically stable galaxy will be more prepared to fight back against the reapers in ME3 than a fractured one).







But the simple fact of the matter is, if you put the debate in that light, then this entire topic has been irrelevant.

[CmdrFenix83]

Lemonwizard wrote...

I mean if you put the debate that way, where you assume that the assessment that too many alliance ships would be lost to defeat sovereign if you save the council, then yes I would choose to focus on Sovereign. That's hardly even a question, the council would just die 10 minutes later anyway when a thousand reapers come through the relay and devastate any remaining citadel forces.

This is exactly what the "Concentrate on Sovereign" group is saying.  That's the whole point to our argument. 

I don't think that's the debate we're having, however. Yes we're all speculating....but that's what this topic is is speculation. It's a what if topic. In terms of what actually happens in the game, you win either way (and of the two outcomes of what actually happens I think saving the council is the better choice for the galaxy, as a politically stable galaxy will be more prepared to fight back against the reapers in ME3 than a fractured one).

But the simple fact of the matter is, if you put the debate in that light, then this entire topic has been irrelevant.

Well, the point of the original post, was to ask why other people than himself chose to save the Council, claiming that it was logical to do so.  The "Concentrate on Sovereign" crowd, myself included, are explaining why we left the Council to die.  It really is just as simple as "We didn't know if the ships lost saving them would cause us to lose to Sovereign."  At least not without meta-gaming the decision.

[Lemonwizard]

Shandepared wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

I mean if you put the debate that way, where you assume that the assessment that too many alliance ships would be lost to defeat sovereign if you save the council, then yes I would choose to focus on Sovereign. That's hardly even a question, the council would just die 10 minutes later anyway when a thousand reapers come through the relay and devastate any remaining citadel forces.

I think this is as close to an agreement we are ever going to get.

I'm not closed to changing my opinion, I've just yet to see any real justification as to WHY you guys are saying the Geth fleet isn't a threat. If the battle were that down to the wire, it seems to me like throwing the alliance forces into the mix would result in a clear victory against sovereign no matter which path you choose (....which is actually what happens, but...). But saying that they're not a threat because the game doesn't give you the option to close the citadel again hardly seems like a solid argument to me.

[CmdrFenix83]

Lemonwizard wrote...

I'm not closed to changing my opinion, I've just yet to see any real justification as to WHY you guys are saying the Geth fleet isn't a threat. If the battle were that down to the wire, it seems to me like throwing the alliance forces into the mix would result in a clear victory against sovereign no matter which path you choose (....which is actually what happens, but...). But saying that they're not a threat because the game doesn't give you the option to close the citadel again hardly seems like a solid argument to me.

Well, the Geth aren't a threat because they're engaged.  Breaking off from combat and turning your rear to the enemy fleet is a quick way to get blown to hell.  They would have to get past or around the remaining Citadel fleet to pursue the Arcturus fleet.  The only way the Geth are involved with the Alliance fleet is if you order them to engage.

[Ahglock]

Lemonwizard wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

I mean if you put the debate that way, where you assume that the assessment that too many alliance ships would be lost to defeat sovereign if you save the council, then yes I would choose to focus on Sovereign. That's hardly even a question, the council would just die 10 minutes later anyway when a thousand reapers come through the relay and devastate any remaining citadel forces.

I think this is as close to an agreement we are ever going to get.

I'm not closed to changing my opinion, I've just yet to see any real justification as to WHY you guys are saying the Geth fleet isn't a threat. If the battle were that down to the wire, it seems to me like throwing the alliance forces into the mix would result in a clear victory against sovereign no matter which path you choose (....which is actually what happens, but...). But saying that they're not a threat because the game doesn't give you the option to close the citadel again hardly seems like a solid argument to me.

Well sure, the geth are a threat.  They are still a threat if you attack them to save the DA.  The only information we have though is we may lose too many ships in saving the DA to take out soveriegn.  Since we have so little information, we kind of have to trust the characters on things like that.  Now if you had a plan involving strapping two steyr aug assault rifles to the front of the normandy I'd have to go with that one, because I love it when a plan comes together.