230 réponses à ce sujet

[Pacifien]

Lemonwizard wrote...
I don't think that's the debate we're having, however. Yes we're all speculating....but that's what this topic is is speculation. It's a what if topic. In terms of what actually happens in the game, you win either way (and of the two outcomes of what actually happens I think saving the council is the better choice for the galaxy, as a politically stable galaxy will be more prepared to fight back against the reapers in ME3 than a fractured one).

If the answer to why you saved the council is because you knew it wouldn't matter either way, so you went with the more diplomatic outcome... then that's cool. I'll be honest, I did the same thing. There's no other way I'm gonna get my "Ah yes, 'Reapers'" dialogue in ME3 without it.

But if the answer involves something like you thought fighting the Geth off first was more important, or you thought the Destiny Ascension was too important a ship to lose, or you couldn't bear to lose the lives of the 10,000 aboard the ship, or you want to prove that humanity will throw itself to the wolves to help save other Council races... then yeah, something just makes me want to counterpoint. Because there's so much we don't know about the state of the battle, I have to break it down to its simplest intent: Sovereign wants to open the relay, Shepard wants to stop him. To what lengths will Shepard go to do so?

[Azint]

I was pretty sure it was the right thing to do when I was on the spot.

I half regret saving them.

[Pacifien]

Azint wrote...

I was pretty sure it was the right thing to do when I was on the spot.

I half regret saving them.

I bet the Turian Councilor doesn't even believe you saved him. Shepard is just crazy! Craaaaazy!

[RigAudio]

I didn't. Bahahahahaaaaa

[Lemonwizard]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

I'm not closed to changing my opinion, I've just yet to see any real justification as to WHY you guys are saying the Geth fleet isn't a threat. If the battle were that down to the wire, it seems to me like throwing the alliance forces into the mix would result in a clear victory against sovereign no matter which path you choose (....which is actually what happens, but...). But saying that they're not a threat because the game doesn't give you the option to close the citadel again hardly seems like a solid argument to me.

Well, the Geth aren't a threat because they're engaged.  Breaking off from combat and turning your rear to the enemy fleet is a quick way to get blown to hell.  They would have to get past or around the remaining Citadel fleet to pursue the Arcturus fleet.  The only way the Geth are involved with the Alliance fleet is if you order them to engage.

But that's what I'm saying is that if all the Geth are engaged and they can't afford to dispatch anything to help sovereign (who's clearly the focus of the battle, if they CAN spare anything, they certainly will), then the defense is doing well enough that once the Alliance hits the scene they'd be able to win either way.



And if we can win either way, then I'd make the effort to save the council for the long term political ramifications.



The way I see it, it's all speculation but there's a few ways it could play out:


SITUATION 1:
The council's going to die because citadel fleet is getting completely trashed and won't hold much longer.

-If you move in to help the council, this damages the geth enough that the citadel forces can continue holding the line and guarding your flank while you take on sovereign with a slightly smaller force

-If you don't move in to help the council, when the citadel fleet is dispatched the Geth are able to move in on you from behind and you have to dedicate a significant portion of your forces to guard that side, leaving the actual force engaging sovereign probably smaller than if you'd helped the council (or possibly costing you the battle altogether)

FOR SITUATION 1: Saving the council seems the clear choice in terms of this battle specifically.

SITUATION 2:
The Citadel Fleet's pretty even with the Geth but the Destiny Ascension in particular is getting focus fired very badly and that's why the council is going to die.

-If you move in to help the council you will take out a significant portion of the Geth ships and tip the battle in the favor of the citadel fleet, ensuring that the Geth won't be able to mount a counterattack on you while you're fighting Sovereign and also possibly getting you some reinforcements from Turian/Asari ships that would make up for your own lost numbers

-If you let the council die, the council dies. The citadel fleet continues to be deadlocked with the Geth and you move on to Sovereign with your full fleet.


FOR SITUATION 2: It's kind of sixes in terms of this battle, which means you should save the Council for the long term benefits of galactic political stability.

SITUATION 3:
The Citadel fleet is clearly winning against the Geth, but the council is going to die because the Destiny Ascension in particular is being targetted by the Geth and likely will not survive the battle even though Citadel forces should prove victorious.

-If you save the council, the Geth fleet is basically done with and hasn't even accomplished their side goal, you will lose some ships but probably gain more in terms of Citadel ship reinforcements helping the Alliance

-If you ignore the council, they die but you have a full strength fleet and probably are going to get those same reinforcements in a few minutes anyway. Probably will result in about the same amount of people fighting Sovereign just a different distribution of casualties between human/nonhuman.

FOR SITUATION 3: Again, you'd probably win either way, so why would you not save the council?





That's how I see it. Killing Sovereign is more important than saving the council, to be sure, but if you can realistically expect to do both I see no reason not to.

[Pacifien]

RigAudio wrote...

I didn't. Bahahahahaaaaa

Dammit. I was looking forward to Ugly Shepard meeting them.

[Azint]

Pacifien wrote...

Azint wrote...

I was pretty sure it was the right thing to do when I was on the spot.

I half regret saving them.

I bet the Turian Councilor doesn't even believe you saved him. Shepard is just crazy! Craaaaazy!

Bastard, using finger-quotes on Shepard.

[Pacifien]

What if the situation was the battle is completely FUBAR, the Geth have decimated our fleet, all hope is lost?



I say if I go, Sovereign goes with me.

[Azint]

Pacifien wrote...

What if the situation was the battle is completely FUBAR, the Geth have decimated our fleet, all hope is lost?

I say if I go, Sovereign goes with me.

Sheaprd: I should go.

[Lemonwizard]

Pacifien wrote...

What if the situation was the battle is completely FUBAR, the Geth have decimated our fleet, all hope is lost?

I say if I go, Sovereign goes with me.

I'd go for a suicide strike on Sovereign. But at that point, that council is already dead (or past saving) and I'm not making this decision.

[Pacifien]

Lemonwizard wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

What if the situation was the battle is completely FUBAR, the Geth have decimated our fleet, all hope is lost?

I say if I go, Sovereign goes with me.

I'd go for a suicide strike on Sovereign. But at that point, that council is already dead (or past saving) and I'm not making this decision.

Yeah, that's why I concentrated on Sovereign.

[CmdrFenix83]

Lemonwizard wrote...

But that's what I'm saying is that if all the Geth are engaged and they can't afford to dispatch anything to help sovereign (who's clearly the focus of the battle, if they CAN spare anything, they certainly will), then the defense is doing well enough that once the Alliance hits the scene they'd be able to win either way.

The Geth aren't the problem.  You have a time-sensetive encounter with a gigantic robot-prawn.  That's the situation.  Sovereign is the threat.  The Geth are a distraction and a nuisance.  If what you're saying was true, then your decision would have been proven after-the-fact if the Citadel fleet had helped on Sovereign. 

And if we can win either way, then I'd make the effort to save the council for the long term political ramifications.

This is metagame, so I won't even address it, as it's irrelevant to the conversation.

The way I see it, it's all speculation but there's a few ways it could play out:

<snip>

That's how I see it. Killing Sovereign is more important than saving the council, to be sure, but if you can realistically expect to do both I see no reason not to.

You don't know Sovereign's capabilities.  Remember that the Arcturus fleet is severely crippled and sustains heavy casualties no matter which choice you make.  It's really a matter of sacrificing ships to save the crippled Ascension, or improve your odds of beating Sovereign.  There is no way of knowing beforehand how many casualties you'll sustain attempting to save the Ascension, nor is there a guarantee that you'll actually save it.  Joker believes they can, however, your squadmates both believe Sovereign might win if you try.

The point is, you can't realistically expect to do both without metagaming.  Both squadmates state the Council has to be sacrificed, regardless of who you bring with you.  It's simply risking the galaxy to save 1 disabled ship. 

[Lemonwizard]

Regardless of what Sovereign's capabilities are, I DO know what the Geth's capabilities are, and know that they do have the power to seriously mess me up unless the Citadel forces are able to keep them off my back.



You do have a point that if the Geth and Citadel fleet are completely deadlocked, I should probably go for Sovereign with nothing less than full strength, since I have no idea the kind of power that thing's packing and shouldn't take any risks of not being able to stop it in time to prevent the relay from being opened.



However, and I know that this is just my own personal interpretation, that's not how I perceived the battle to be going judging from the cutscenes and the dialogue. It looked to me like the Citadel fleet was getting their asses handed to them and needed all the help they could get just to hang on. So I decided to help them while I waited for the wards to open.

[Wildecker]

Honestly? Because I thought the fight against the Reapers would benefit from Council members who experienced Sovereign first-hand and not their replacements who had to be convinced all over again. Mind you - with Saren down and Vigil's program locking Sovereign out of the CItadel controls, we had already won: no imminent Reaper invasion, just a single (big) ship that could just as well have decided to fight another day.
Instead it puppeteered Saren's corpse. Bugger.

There were other considerations. For instance "Right now, a fleet of Geth ships is shooting at the Destiny. Once they're done with her, they'll be right behind the Alliance fleet and free to pick targets. Bad move!" And I had the slim hope that even a crippled Destiny would line up its powerful main gun for a potshot at Sovereign once the Council could be shuttled away into safety. Remember how they said it could (probably) take out an Alliance cruiser with a single hit?

Modifié par Wildecker, 24 mars 2010 - 07:40 .

[CmdrFenix83]

Lemonwizard wrote...

Regardless of what Sovereign's capabilities are, I DO know what the Geth's capabilities are, and know that they do have the power to seriously mess me up unless the Citadel forces are able to keep them off my back.

You do have a point that if the Geth and Citadel fleet are completely deadlocked, I should probably go for Sovereign with nothing less than full strength, since I have no idea the kind of power that thing's packing and shouldn't take any risks of not being able to stop it in time to prevent the relay from being opened.

However, and I know that this is just my own personal interpretation, that's not how I perceived the battle to be going judging from the cutscenes and the dialogue. It looked to me like the Citadel fleet was getting their asses handed to them and needed all the help they could get just to hang on. So I decided to help them while I waited for the wards to open.

Well that there is the difference.  We don't know the state of the Citadel/Geth fleets.  All we know is that the Destiny Ascension is dead in the water and calling for help due to the Council's presence.

I make no guesses about the state of the battle up there as we have no way to know.  Even if the Citadel fleet is nearly decimated, Sovereign is the only thing that matters.  If he opens the relay, the galaxy is ****ed.  I can't justify risking the fate of the galaxy for the lives of 3 people and the crew of a single, disabled ship.

Even if the Geth can hit us from behind after, all I care about is stopping Sovereign in this case.  I'm not normally an 'at any cost' person, as I blow up the Collector base 100% of the time, but in this situation, oblivion literally is any minute now, and it's time to put the ideals and morals away and do what has to be done.

[knightnblu]

I saved the council because they lead my allies and I am going to need allies when I hit the Reapers. If I had decapitated the Council government, the resulting chaos would have prolonged the refractory period after victory leaving us vulnerable to counter attack. Also, as a spectre it was my duty to save them if I could and by immediately bringing my reinforcements to bear I stood a good chance of surprising my enemy and knocking him off of his game giving me the initiative. Overthought? Probably, but I was role playing :-)

[CmdrFenix83]

Wildecker wrote...

Honestly? Because I thought the fight against the Reapers would benefit from Council members who experienced Sovereign first-hand and not their replacements who had to be convinced all over again. Mind you - with Saren down and Vigil's program locking Sovereign out of the CItadel controls, we had already won: no imminent Reaper invasion, just a single (big) ship that could just as well have decided to fight another day.
Instead it puppeteered Saren's corpse. Bugger.

There were other considerations. For instance "Right now, a fleet of Geth ships is shooting at the Destiny. Once they're done with her, they'll be right behind the Alliance fleet and free to pick targets. Bad move!" And I had the slim hope that even a crippled Destiny would line up its powerful main gun for a potshot at Sovereign once the Council could be shuttled away into safety. Remember how they said it could (probably) take out an Alliance cruiser with a single hit?

Vigil told you that his datafile is temporary.  It was only a matter of time before Sovereign succeeded.  It was just a datafile.  Pretty much *everything* in the ME world is hackable.  Look at how good EDI is at it, and she's based on *Sovereign*.

[RigAudio]

Pacifien wrote...

RigAudio wrote...

I didn't. Bahahahahaaaaa

Dammit. I was looking forward to Ugly Shepard meeting them.

There's always that save editor.

[Lemonwizard]

I really don't see any point in further debate on the subject, I'm satisfied with this resolution. It seems pretty clear to me that you're obviously correct if things were going the way you perceived them to be, and I perceived them to be going differently form that.





Arguing any more wouldn't be anything but "I'm right!" "No, I'M right!" and repeating our same arguments over and over again.







Good debate, though. I enjoyed it. We should disagree again some time. =)

[Pacifien]

Lemonwizard wrote...
Good debate, though. I enjoyed it. We should disagree again some time. =)

So... why did YOU destroy the Collector Base?

[CmdrFenix83]

Lemonwizard wrote...

I really don't see any point in further debate on the subject, I'm satisfied with this resolution. It seems pretty clear to me that you're obviously correct if things were going the way you perceived them to be, and I perceived them to be going differently form that.

Arguing any more wouldn't be anything but "I'm right!" "No, I'M right!" and repeating our same arguments over and over again.

Good debate, though. I enjoyed it. We should disagree again some time. =)

Hehe.  Well that seems to be the end result in about 99% of internet forum debates.  I've cleared ME2 10 times, and I'm not sure if it's my disc or my 360, but at least one of them is *very* worn out by the process.  In the suicide mission, sometimes music doesn't play, and I'm getting new graphical errors all over.

In short, I'm bored so I'm spending a lot of time on the forums here.  8/

[Lemonwizard]

Ah see I've got a high quality gaming PC and don't use a disk because I downloaded the steam version, so that's not an issue for me.





I prefer playing games on the couch most of the time, but I just have to have my keyboard and mouse for any game that requires me to aim.

[CmdrFenix83]

Lemonwizard wrote...

Ah see I've got a high quality gaming PC and don't use a disk because I downloaded the steam version, so that's not an issue for me.

I prefer playing games on the couch most of the time, but I just have to have my keyboard and mouse for any game that requires me to aim.

If I could afford a better PC and moniter, I'd consider it.  However, my console doesn't get viruses, I've got a nice HDTV, and I just feel more at home with a controller in my hand.  I can relax more when out of combat when playing on the console, too.  I've also been playing shooters on consoles since Goldeneye, so I've gotten very used to it.

[Tilarta]

Well, very simply, I was making a point about compassion.



They spat on Shepherd again and again and even though I don't like them personally, I still wasn't about to let them die out of petty resentment.

[CmdrFenix83]

Tilarta wrote...

Well, very simply, I was making a point about compassion.

They spat on Shepherd again and again and even though I don't like them personally, I still wasn't about to let them die out of petty resentment.

Well, no one's discussing that option.  It's more about whether or not you deem that losing the ships to save them is worth it if those lost ships could cause your fleet to lose to Sovereign.