82 réponses à ce sujet

[Destinfire]

One of the things that have gotten me wondering about the
council, specifically the taurian council member, is weather they are truly
ignorant or have they used what they knew to push things in a desired
direction. The council is supposed to be the greatest political minds in the
galaxy a master in the craft if the books are to be believed. This brings
question on their reactions and judgments. For instance the Taurain council
member, is he really that aggressive or is he using the racial tension between
the humans and taurians to distract from the decisions of the other two council
members, decisions that are almost always unanimous. In the meeting in ME2 he
uses air quotes, an act that is both human and insulting and what other purpose
could that serve? Perhaps to push you closer to the human council member,
opening up about your intentions and accomplishments to a "friendlier
face". After all even our human council member showed doubt about our
loyalty and who better to find out if we really went Saren on them. I find it
hard to believe the council still doesn’t believe the Reapers exist, especially
sense the Taurians built a weapon from one. I think it may come to a shock that
perhaps the taurain council member isn't the hot tempered instigator but merely
playing it smart with the rest of the council and showing the face that is most useful for the situation


 

Or maybe he’s just a dick.

Modifié par Destinfire, 24 mars 2010 - 04:11 .

[Spartas Husky]

He is a politician man.



I was part of the military. Would you believe me, that the so called reality is a complete joke?.



got a better way to explain it. Ever seen men in black?



"people are afraid, the more of them are together they more stupid they get, they dont need to know anything, they believe they got it all figured out"



He is a politician, he tells the turian people.."geth" are the enemy, they wont question him, they'll just get ready for war... does the people really need to know they are facing a suicidal war? 99% of people and a good amount of soldiers would surrender before attempting suicide



Same is today. Scare the mob enough to allow you to do what you need, is not tactical is not 'strategic" the fight will come either the enemy hits first, or we do, do we get hit first because the people are too scared, or too blind to see the bigger picture... hell no, lie to the mob tell em the geth are weak...or that they have doomsday weapons ready to deploy, most likely they wont have em, but it will buy time and resources to tackle the reapers later on.





That is if he was a good politician, the asari and salarian are...the turian rubs me the wrong way. He tries to hard to deny things.

Feeling came when I read the "indoctrination codex" info and I read "if a leader of a nation is indoctrinated if could topple nations".



The Turian just tries to damn hard to insult you..., a blind person denies things, with a firm grip and that is it. A selfish one who his "assets are at stake" will sound almost threatening, but somebody is forced to lie usually goes overboard and you can feel it. The turian just tries to damn hard to deny the reapers.



Either he is a VERY VERY big hippie, or something is wrong with him

[Bigdoser]

Maybe the council can't tell you anything cause you are with cerb.

[BlackFlameGhost]

They didnt tell you anything before that.



Its almost as if Shep being the first human Spectre was bull**** to begin with.

[Spartas Husky]

BlackFlameGhost wrote...

They didnt tell you anything before that.

Its almost as if Shep being the first human Spectre was bull**** to begin with.

That just reminded of something.

Either the Turian is just racist like Saren...or still has something to do with the reapers themselves.

Either way he gives me a bad vibe above all the other members.

Besides admitting to have the same enemy has nothing to dow ith somebody's alligeance.

[RiouHotaru]

I'm under the impression the Salarian Councilor IS with Shepard on the Reaper threat, but being a Salarian, is never going to announce that stance until his plans are already in motion. Remember, salarians are VERY gond of spy tactics and undercover ops. They never openly show their hand until victory is assured.



Therefore I believe he likely does side with Shepard, but is also plotting and scheming on his own.

[devilsgrin]

I agree with the OP. These Council members are FAR too skilled in their art to be stupid. They know what the public can handle, and they know what to tell their own superiors back home. The use of Reaper tech by the Turian military tells us that they know its not Geth tech. And must, by process of elimination, indeed be Reaper.

To the Council, working with or For Cerberus, does indeed make you a traitor, in that stance, Shep has no right whatsoever to know whats going on behind the scenes in the Citadel, nor in the fleets of the Asari, the Salarians, (and since they have the biggest) and most definitely not the Turian. We are given no information as to what these governments are doing.



The Turian may indeed still be a di@k, but he's a di@k with a brain. And he damn well knows how to use it. I feel he has a firm understanding of Humans, and how to motivate them, how else would he know the "air quotes" thing, and how insulting it is. Shep responded EXTREMELY well to his standoffish attitude first time round, She saved the galaxy.

[AntiChri5]

Bigdoser wrote...

Maybe the council can't tell you anything cause you are with cerb.

[DPSSOC]

I could see the denial of the Reapers being political manouevering to get Shepard to open up to Anderson but why not just refuse to speak to him at all? Shep walks in and Anderson goes, "Shepard, I tried to convince the other Councillors to hear you out but they wouldn't agree to a meeting. They're concerned about reports that you're working with Cerberus. Now I trust you Shepard and I'm behind you 100% but you've got to tell me what the hell is going on."

Or something to that effect.

There's also the third option of rather than being stupid or political geniuses they're just terrified. Think about it here's essentially what Shepard says, "A group of sentient ships are coming to wipe us out just like they did the Protheans. They've apparently done this countless times before and seem rather confident that our attempts to resist are pointless. Now I'm off to go stop them."

This is not something to encourage confidence so it's easier, and less frightening, to believe that Shepard's just lost his mind.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 24 mars 2010 - 10:44 .

[royceclemens]

I don't really know, as I don't know how you get to be a councilor.

If they're democratically elected, telling the public about a Reaper threat will scare them. And scared voters mean you don't get re-elected. If they blared the Reaper horn before Shepard died, by the time he came back they would have been voted out. That's kind of what happens when you present people with a threat that doesn't materialize again for over two years. If there's a shadow of a doubt, the smart move is to play dumb and keep the peace (and your job)

However, if it's a lifetime thing like a Supreme Court Judge? Then yeah, they're being redonkulous. They can afford to scare people.

Modifié par royceclemens, 24 mars 2010 - 10:59 .

[TheUnusualSuspect]

It makes no sense.  Spectre's are the Council's most trusted secret-service agents.  As such, these guys have security and information clearance that goes far and above the general military grunt, or populace.  If there's anyone in the galaxy that the council can be frank and open with over matters of galactic importance that would otherwise scare the crap out of the general populace, it would be their Spectres.  I mean, that's the job of the Spectre's, to deal with the big issues behind the scenes.

So, no.  I don't buy it for one second that the Council is "smart" in keeping one of their most elite agents in the dark over an issue that said elite agent has a direct vested interest in.

It just makes zero sense.

[devilsgrin]

it makes perfect sense if their elite agent is working for a Rogue organisation like Cerberus.

whether Shep is or not, the Council only knows what TIM has leaked. Shepard is alive and working for Cerberus - avowed enemy of the Council. They can't afford to take you at your word... look what happened with Saren when they did that.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

devilsgrin wrote...

it makes perfect sense if their elite agent is working for a Rogue organisation like Cerberus.
whether Shep is or not, the Council only knows what TIM has leaked. Shepard is alive and working for Cerberus - avowed enemy of the Council. They can't afford to take you at your word... look what happened with Saren when they did that.

Which is precisely why it makes no sense for Shepard, who's entire unit was killed on Akuze by Cerberus, Cerberus which has conducted sick experiments on human Alliance soldiers (injecting them with Thresher Maw acid for example) to then not turn Miranda and Jacob in as the criminals that they are, and have Miranda questioned for the location of TIM.  Cerberus serves humanity and has humanity's best interests at heart.  Yeah right!

That is why it makes no sense, that Shepard would continue to appear to be aligned with Cerberus, and cause the Council to act like they do.  It's completely illogical.

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 24 mars 2010 - 11:27 .

[devilsgrin]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

devilsgrin wrote...

it makes perfect sense if their elite agent is working for a Rogue organisation like Cerberus.
whether Shep is or not, the Council only knows what TIM has leaked. Shepard is alive and working for Cerberus - avowed enemy of the Council. They can't afford to take you at your word... look what happened with Saren when they did that.

Which is precisely why it makes no sense for Shepard, who's entire unit was killed on Akuze by Cerberus, Cerberus which has conducted sick experiments on human Alliance soldiers (injecting them with Thresher Maw acid for example) to then not turn Miranda and Jacob in as the criminals that they are, and have Miranda questioned for the location of TIM.  Cerberus serves humanity and has humanity's best interests at heart.  Yeah right!

That is why it makes no sense, that Shepard would continue to appear to be aligned with Cerberus, and cause the Council to act like they do.  It's completely illogical.

only Sole Survivor Shep survived Akuze. The rest of the experiments are side-missions not crucial to completing ME1, so are hardly plot-line essential. It may not make any sense for Shep to work with/for Cerberus, especially from our perspective, but i would really doubt the Council knew much at all about what Shep was off doing when not at Feros, Noveria, Virmire, or Ilos. The Council also knows, through their political observations that alliance's between fierce enemies are not as uncommon as one woudl think, and make for even more formiddable and unpredictable adversaries.
We know that Jacob is no criminal, he's as Alliance still as Shep is. We also know, pretty early on that Jacob and Miranda have saved the Citadel themselves. She literally gave you life. He stood by your side on several missions - long enough to prove his character.  (or lack-there-of as the case may be with Jacob). Shep wouldn't sell out either of them. Miranda is FAR too useful for him to surrender to the Council. and Jacob is another skilled gun to help out.

Regardless of whether Shep has tried to distance himself from Cerberus, once his reputation has been damaged its like a mirror... once its shattered, no matter how hard you work to get rid of the cracks, they'll always be there. The doubt over Shep's loyalty, especially at this stage, are FAR too difficult to overcome for the Council, or for Shep to counter without action.

[Raphael diSanto]

There's flags in the ME1 save file about whether or not your Shep even knows who Cerberus are (I'm guessing they're based on Sole Survivor/Admiral Kahoku mission line etc). That's why there are dialogue options to ask about Cerberus at the start of the game.



Also..

DPSSOC wrote...



I could see the denial of the Reapers being political manouevering to get Shepard to open up to Anderson but why not just refuse to speak to him at all? Shep walks in and Anderson goes, "Shepard, I tried to convince the other Councillors to hear you out but they wouldn't agree to a meeting. They're concerned about reports that you're working with Cerberus. Now I trust you Shepard and I'm behind you 100% but you've got to tell me what the hell is going on."



Or something to that effect.

That only happens if it's an all-human council. A multi-species council will still talk with Shepard, so it's dependant upon your actions at the end of ME1.

[Gocad]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

Which is precisely why it makes no sense for Shepard, who's entire unit was killed on Akuze by Cerberus, Cerberus which has conducted sick experiments on human Alliance soldiers (injecting them with Thresher Maw acid for example) to then not turn Miranda and Jacob in as the criminals that they are, and have Miranda questioned for the location of TIM.  Cerberus serves humanity and has humanity's best interests at heart.  Yeah right!

That is why it makes no sense, that Shepard would continue to appear to be aligned with Cerberus, and cause the Council to act like they do.  It's completely illogical.

That is all optional ME1 content you're referring to. Not to mention that it would make squad selection a bit more difficult if certain picks would lead to such outcomes.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

So, if Shepard had done all those side mission and had the sole-survivor background, then you reckon it makes sense that he'll blindly follow Cerberus?

Or are we using the obvious game-mechanic excuse to answer a hypothetical in-game question?

As for not trusting Shepard, he was the one who saved the Council's butts when he didn't have to, and stopped Saren. If there was one guy in the entire Spectre team that they'd be giving the benefit of the doubt to, it would be Shepard.

Oh, and if Cerberus was "optional", then why does everyone in the Galaxy know about Cerberus's horrid past but Shepard, who was an Alliance Specture for months after the events of ME1 before he got spaced.

It all sounds like you're making lame out-of-game excuses for sloppy plot devices.

It would have been so much more rewarding to actually hide the Cerberus involvement at the start, and have that be a major reveal towards the end of the game.  ie.  the Council has their suspicions over who's funding Shepard and so treats him with caution, but Shep himself is oblivious until the game's end, when it all makes sense.

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 24 mars 2010 - 12:58 .

[Raphael diSanto]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

So, if Shepard had done all those side mission and had the sole-survivor background, then you reckon it makes sense that he'll blindly follow Cerberus?

No, no one's saying that. This board is full of threads about how unsatisfying it is to not be able to tell TIM to shove his cigarette-smoking face out the nearest airlock, hijack the Normandy and head straight for the council.

I liked your idea about keeping Cerberus secret though. That would have been a cool plot twist, imo.

[RobbertDewulf]

They're bastards, nothing more nothing less, because we're humans they don't trust us, if it were Turians saying that the reapers are coming they would immediatly declare war against the real enemy.

[devilsgrin]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

So, if Shepard had done all those side mission and had the sole-survivor background, then you reckon it makes sense that he'll blindly follow Cerberus?

Or are we using the obvious game-mechanic excuse to answer a hypothetical in-game question?

As for not trusting Shepard, he was the one who saved the Council's butts when he didn't have to, and stopped Saren. If there was one guy in the entire Spectre team that they'd be giving the benefit of the doubt to, it would be Shepard.

Oh, and if Cerberus was "optional", then why does everyone in the Galaxy know about Cerberus's horrid past but Shepard, who was an Alliance Specture for months after the events of ME1 before he got spaced.

It all sounds like you're making lame out-of-game excuses for sloppy plot devices.

It would have been so much more rewarding to actually hide the Cerberus involvement at the start, and have that be a major reveal towards the end of the game.  ie.  the Council has their suspicions over who's funding Shepard and so treats him with caution, but Shep himself is oblivious until the game's end, when it all makes sense.

of course its not logical for Shepard to be working with Cerberus. Thats not the issue here. Its the Council's reaction that is being debated.
the Council, responsible for the safety of billions of lives, and a galaxy spanning military and economy doesn't have the luxury of being able to give benefit of the doubt. offering to re-instate Shep as a Spectre IS their way of keeping you on-side, without publicly acknowledging your actions. Saren himself had saved the galaxy, at least so we are led to believe... he was the BEST of the Spectre's and he betrayed the Council. 
 
we had no chance for a hidden cerberus involvement... TIM had leaked that, seemingly BEFORE Shep woke up. it would have been better, but it would also have made you seem even more the traitor in the eyes of not just the council, but everyone else too.

[SurfaceBeneath]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

So, if Shepard had done all those side mission and had the sole-survivor background, then you reckon it makes sense that he'll blindly follow Cerberus?

Or are we using the obvious game-mechanic excuse to answer a hypothetical in-game question?

As for not trusting Shepard, he was the one who saved the Council's butts when he didn't have to, and stopped Saren. If there was one guy in the entire Spectre team that they'd be giving the benefit of the doubt to, it would be Shepard.

Oh, and if Cerberus was "optional", then why does everyone in the Galaxy know about Cerberus's horrid past but Shepard, who was an Alliance Specture for months after the events of ME1 before he got spaced.

It all sounds like you're making lame out-of-game excuses for sloppy plot devices.

It would have been so much more rewarding to actually hide the Cerberus involvement at the start, and have that be a major reveal towards the end of the game.  ie.  the Council has their suspicions over who's funding Shepard and so treats him with caution, but Shep himself is oblivious until the game's end, when it all makes sense.

The hell? I'm pretty god damn positive that there was a dialogue option every single time you were talking with someone affiliated with Cerberus to express your extreme displeasure at doing so. Hell, you can get outright pissy with TIM on numerous occassions and at the end of the game give him a giant atomic middle finger. That doesn't in any way mean that Shepard has a choice in the matter. You know, unless you want the galaxy to be doomed simply because of a (admittedly well deserved) grudge. In which case, why don't you go ahead and "role-play" that option by taking the Normandy and roaming around the Galaxy aimlessly for a few years and then suddenly turn your game off and pretend the Reapers just invaded and you died because you weren't a big enough man to do what needed to be done to save it despite your reservations.

Man, were you even playing the same game I was?

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 24 mars 2010 - 01:54 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

To the OP: The council are oblivious dicks. Nothing more.

[Bigdoser]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

To the OP: The council are oblivious dicks. Nothing more.

I bet thats what bioware wants us to think of them maybe they will be of more help in me3

[Flamewielder]

I saw the meeting with the council as typical from any similar political body. People tend to see the Coucil as a single body, forgetting that individual council members are also looking after their own species interest.

Turians and Humans are competing for the same niche: the military arm of the Council. Right now, the Turians are it, with the largest fleet and standing armed forces. Their culture encourages military service, rather like the Earth's Romans of the late Republic/early Empire. They enjoy considerable influence within council space.

Having his butt saved by Humans is not easy to swallow from a naturally proud Turian. And because of it, Humans have secured a council seat only decades after appearing on the galactic stage and are now taking up positions within C-Sec which were previously held by Turians... The Turians are losing their grip on the Council and they are NOT happy about it. And if Shep sacrificed the Council in ME1, turians are actually rioting in the streets instead their councillor being merely "insulting".

And people think he's just being a dick... the reality is more complex than that. I even expect Shepard will have a big loyalty mission to do in ME3 to win back the Turians.

[Destinfire]

RobbertDewulf wrote...

They're bastards, nothing more nothing less, because we're humans they don't trust us, if it were Turians saying that the reapers are coming they would immediatly declare war against the real enemy.

I'm not sure it can be that simple. Lets put us in a more reconizable situation. Lets say its WII and the Ku Klux Klan (who at one time were a powerful and well informed organization with people in nearly every part of the goverment) rescued a decorated war vet and told him of a massive N@zi threat that only they knew about and the soldier found out its true so has to work with them. Now do you think that perhaps others might have a problem with that especialy those of the races most persecuted by the group, it may cause trust issues no matter how justifed in reality it is.

Modifié par Destinfire, 24 mars 2010 - 04:12 .