82 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Council = strategic dicks (paragon)

= dead dicks (renegade)

[DarthRevan4life]

I would like to assume they are fully aware of the Reaper threat.  If you did a Paragon end in ME1 they basically tell you they believe you and that humanity is the key to save the galaxy; not in those exact words obviously but stay on point.  When you visit the derelect reaper in ME2 there's video logs of two Cerberus scientists talking about one of their wives but the other says that was really his wife.  We know that derelect reaper was still capable of controlling ones mind and obviously now can implant anothers memories or hell possibly create it's own memories and implanting them.

Parts of Soverign that littered the Citadel after it's destruction were recovered but apparently like Anderson stated they brushed it off as a Geth warship.  But whose to say that regardless of Soverign being destroyed that there's no effects of indoctrination after being destroyed?  Is it possible that like Saren, the council is now under control but in a subtle way?  I'd like to believe this as it seems more logical than simply the council ignoring something that potentially would wipe out all sentient life in the galaxy.

That's just my opinion though.

[Gabey5]

its a video game. the main character always has to save the world alone... i dont get why this is such a big deal it is essentially the plot of every game..

[TheUnusualSuspect]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

The hell? I'm pretty god damn positive that there was a dialogue option every single time you were talking with someone affiliated with Cerberus to express your extreme displeasure at doing so. Hell, you can get outright pissy with TIM on numerous occassions and at the end of the game give him a giant atomic middle finger. That doesn't in any way mean that Shepard has a choice in the matter. You know, unless you want the galaxy to be doomed simply because of a (admittedly well deserved) grudge. In which case, why don't you go ahead and "role-play" that option by taking the Normandy and roaming around the Galaxy aimlessly for a few years and then suddenly turn your game off and pretend the Reapers just invaded and you died because you weren't a big enough man to do what needed to be done to save it despite your reservations.

Man, were you even playing the same game I was?

Firstly, stop acting so immature.

Secondly, it's just ******-poor RPG writing to not allow Shepard the option to flip Cerberus off from the very beginning, steal their ship, and get the job done.  There is zero chance Shepard would work with the Illusive Man given the history.  It's like BW has just reconned Cerberus from being the equivalent of a Josef Mengele, to TIM being a well-meaning but incompetent bumbling idiot that can't oversee anything under his direct control.

Thirdly,  taking the Normandy and getting the job done without Cerberus would have always been an in-game option.

If you want to construct straw man arguments to shoot down, go do it on your own time.

IF Shepard was unaware of Cerberus throughout the whole game, then the whole lot would have been easier to understand and accept.

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 24 mars 2010 - 08:40 .

[DPSSOC]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...
Which is precisely why it makes no sense for Shepard, who's entire unit was killed on Akuze by Cerberus, Cerberus which has conducted sick experiments on human Alliance soldiers (injecting them with Thresher Maw acid for example) to then not turn Miranda and Jacob in as the criminals that they are, and have Miranda questioned for the location of TIM.  Cerberus serves humanity and has humanity's best interests at heart.  Yeah right!

Shepard knows the Council, Paragon Shep may be willing to fool him/herself into making the attempt but regardless Shepard knows that since this is a solely human problem in the Terminus Systems the Council will do nothing.

[MINOR ME1 SPOILER WARNING]






Eden Prime was attacked by Geth (Eden Prime being in Citadel Space) and they did nothing.  They didn't send a single ship to investigate, didn't send a fleet to engage the Geth before they could strike again, they did nothing until Shepard forced them to take action, and even that was next to nothing.  Unless Cerberus left out part of Shepard's brain there's no reason for him/her to believe the Council will take action.  So despicable as Cerberus might be even an Uber Paragon Sole Survivor Shep has to accept that they don't have a lot of options.  It's somewhat illogical for a Sole Survivor who knows what Cerberus did to join Cerberus (giving them the base, assisting them in various N7 missions, etc.) but not for said Shep to put aside their past and work with them temporarily. 

Furthermore they brought you back from the dead you owe them.  Or you're even in the Sole Survivor's case.

Raphael diSanto wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
I could see the denial of the Reapers being political manouevering to get Shepard to open up to Anderson but why not just refuse to speak to him at all? Shep walks in and Anderson goes, "Shepard, I tried to convince the other Councillors to hear you out but they wouldn't agree to a meeting. They're concerned about reports that you're working with Cerberus. Now I trust you Shepard and I'm behind you 100% but you've got to tell me what the hell is going on."

Or something to that effect.

That only happens if it's an all-human council. A multi-species council will still talk with Shepard, so it's dependant upon your actions at the end of ME1.

Oh yeah I know I'm saying if the multi-species council were just denying the existence of the Reapers to make Shepard upset and perhaps have him/her reveal the true nature of his/her affiliation with Cerberus to the one man who seems to have his/her back they just wouldn't have spoken to him/her.  Or at least that's how I view it, maybe they thought calling him/her mentally unstable to his/her face would upset him/her more.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 24 mars 2010 - 09:18 .

[Xpheyel]

Ignoring the Reapers is really dumb. Anderson and the ex-crew have done a horrible job of keeping on top of that, unless they're keeping it secret.

Keeping distant from an operative that has been missing for two years and has links to an organization like Cerberus is completely sane. For all they know, the Normandy's destruction was a set up and Cerberus has spent two years turning/brainwashing you. That'd be like if a CIA operative went missing in Russia for two years during the Cold War and popped up asking for a meeting with the President. Even if they liked and felt indebted to Shepard, just giving him back nominal Specter status and letting him roam around after that is a pretty tremendous leap. So big they may just be doing it to placate the humans without investing significant resources (similar to the situation in the Traverse in ME1). Even Anderson, who apparently trusts Shepard a lot more, doesn't confide in him when you ask about Kaiden/Ashley.

To me, that part makes perfect sense. Those characters have no way of knowing where Shepard's really been, what he's done, or what has been done to him in the mean time.

Modifié par Xpheyel, 24 mars 2010 - 09:41 .

[spacehamsterZH]

If you talk to Jacob enough, he'll mention that the council just swept everything under the rug after Shepard died because it was inconvenient, and he mentions how typical that is.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

DPSSOC wrote...

Furthermore they brought you back from the dead you owe them.  Or you're even in the Sole Survivor's case.

Murderers dont murder everyone, they even do good things now and then.  Doesn't change the fact that they're murderers. It's a bit like Samara and her quote:  "Do I really need to know that a criminal is a devoted father?"  If Cerberus brought Shepard back, it was only for Cerberus's own agenda.  They brought Shepard back from the dead, and....?  Doesn't change the fact that Cerberus killed hundreds of humans, being the very people that Shepard seeks to protect.  Shepard owes Cerberus nothing.  They are still criminals on the scale of Mengele.

In any event, and to avoid straying too far from the opening post, it still makes no sense to deny the existence of Reapers to the very agent which saved the council's collective arses from the Reapers, whether said agent may or may not be involved with Cerberus.  On a need-to-know basis, Shepard already knows, so the cat's already out of the bag.  Once again, if the council really did believe that Reapers existed and were just covering it up, then the last person they'd be dishonest with about it is the one man who does know the truth when in a council meeting.

IMO, the council aren't being dicks, nor are they being strategic.  It makes no sense with respect to their treatment of Shepard.  They are utterly brain dead stupid, and I mean that in a plot-device illogical fashion.

[Gavinthelocust]

The asari councilor has a thing for shepard, turian councilor is a plain ****, and the salarian councilor is way too Emperor like and me thinks he's a reaper.

[LPPrince]

 Shepard works better under duress.

The Councillors knew this from the beginning.

They've been seretly pushing Shepard along the WHOLE time.

[DPSSOC]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Furthermore they brought you back from the dead you owe them.  Or you're even in the Sole Survivor's case.

Murderers dont murder everyone, they even do good things now and then.  Doesn't change the fact that they're murderers. It's a bit like Samara and her quote:  "Do I really need to know that a criminal is a devoted father?"  If Cerberus brought Shepard back, it was only for Cerberus's own agenda.  They brought Shepard back from the dead, and....?  Doesn't change the fact that Cerberus killed hundreds of humans, being the very people that Shepard seeks to protect.  Shepard owes Cerberus nothing.  They are still criminals on the scale of Mengele.

Checks google...ah.  I would argue that just because they're criminals doesn't change what they did for Shepard.  Shepard owes Cerberus his/her life, they gave it back to him/her, whether that balances out everything they've done is at the discretion of the player, but in my mind it certainly makes up for anything they've done to Shepard personally.

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...
In any event, and to avoid straying too far from the opening post, it still makes no sense to deny the existence of Reapers to the very agent which saved the council's collective arses from the Reapers, whether said agent may or may not be involved with Cerberus.  On a need-to-know basis, Shepard already knows, so the cat's already out of the bag.  Once again, if the council really did believe that Reapers existed and were just covering it up, then the last person they'd be dishonest with about it is the one man who does know the truth when in a council meeting.

IMO, the council aren't being dicks, nor are they being strategic.  It makes no sense with respect to their treatment of Shepard.  They are utterly brain dead stupid, and I mean that in a plot-device illogical fashion.

I think the original thought is they aren't denying the existence of the Reapers to Shepard, meaning they're not trying to hide the Reaper's existence from him/her, they're denying the existence of the Reapers for Shepard.  Maybe I misunderstood but I think the OP was suggesting that the Council does believe in the Reapers but they pretend not to, with the exception of Anderson, in the hopes of making Shepard confide in him about what's going on with Cerberus.  By making Anderson out to be the only one on your side they hope to strengthen your trust in him enough to tell him the truth.

[DragonShepard138]

The council are annoying political leaders. It was funny when Shepard responded to the Turian councilman saying something along the lines of "I have no problem with genocide---Turian". My quote is way off, but yall know what he said

[BaladasDemnevanni]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

Murderers dont murder everyone, they even do good things now and then.  Doesn't change the fact that they're murderers. It's a bit like Samara and her quote:  "Do I really need to know that a criminal is a devoted father?"  If Cerberus brought Shepard back, it was only for Cerberus's own agenda.  They brought Shepard back from the dead, and....?  Doesn't change the fact that Cerberus killed hundreds of humans, being the very people that Shepard seeks to protect.  Shepard owes Cerberus nothing.  They are still criminals on the scale of Mengele.

Unfortunately, this is a situation where Cerberus' agenda coincides with Shepard's. The Council does not believe him. The Alliance thrust him aside. Whether or not they had resurrected him for their own ends, they were banking on Shepard wanting to stop the Reapers. It was their "Ace in the Hole" so to speak. And you make it sound like you're doing all these horrible atrocities during your employment with Cerberus. How many children are you asked to slaughter? How many colonies do you burn to the ground? The only time you're asked to take a morally questionable action (preserving the Collector Base), you do get to tell them to screw off. And it's not like the Council is full of saints, either.

1. In any event, and to avoid straying too far from the opening post, it still makes no sense to deny the existence of Reapers to the very agent which saved the council's collective arses from the Reapers, whether said agent may or may not be involved with Cerberus. 

2.  On a need-to-know basis, Shepard already knows, so the cat's already out of the bag.  Once again, if the council really did believe that Reapers existed and were just covering it up, then the last person they'd be dishonest with about it is the one man who does know the truth when in a council meeting.

3. IMO, the council aren't being dicks, nor are they being strategic.  It makes no sense with respect to their treatment of Shepard.  They are utterly brain dead stupid, and I mean that in a plot-device illogical fashion.

1. Really? You mean the very agent who managed to use a voice recording to prove Saren was corrupt? Whether human or alien, the Council probably hasn't forgotten that incident. They aren't willing to risk Shepard pulling a 'Tali'. Plus, I doubt they fully believe in the Reapers themselves.

2. Given how intent Shepard is on convincing everyone of the Reapers' existence, he would be the last person I would want to talk to person to person.

3. If someone told you that a race of 37 million year old machines systematically purge all organic life every 50k years, what would you say to that? This already is politically unsound and you might very well be asked to step down, leaving you with nothing. The Council never had any direct contact (aka conversation) with Sovereign, they never experienced the Prothean visions, even if they 'believed' it at the time. It's much easier for them to convince themselves that Sovereign was merely a super Geth Warship, especially since the Geth have been chilling beyond the Perseus Veil.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 25 mars 2010 - 03:39 .

[Nightwriter]

I'm torn. On the one hand it would actually comfort me to think that they're being strategic and that they're not really this stupid or dickish.



On the other hand I feel this wave of wary cynicism telling me not to count on it, sugar.

[Terraneaux]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

The hell? I'm pretty god damn positive that there was a dialogue option every single time you were talking with someone affiliated with Cerberus to express your extreme displeasure at doing so. Hell, you can get outright pissy with TIM on numerous occassions and at the end of the game give him a giant atomic middle finger. That doesn't in any way mean that Shepard has a choice in the matter. You know, unless you want the galaxy to be doomed simply because of a (admittedly well deserved) grudge. In which case, why don't you go ahead and "role-play" that option by taking the Normandy and roaming around the Galaxy aimlessly for a few years and then suddenly turn your game off and pretend the Reapers just invaded and you died because you weren't a big enough man to do what needed to be done to save it despite your reservations.

Man, were you even playing the same game I was?

Nope, you don't destroy the Collector Base because TIM can't be trusted with it.  You destroy it because you think the base is 'evil' or something.  Seriously, the Paragon option is retarded and the Renegade option is to polish TIM's ****.  I think that decision could be handled a little better - like, say, handing it over to the council or the alliance.

[binaryemperor]

 I really don't mind them. I personally think they are up to something. I find it very suspicious how incredibly closed they are to shepard's case.

I think they have their own plans, or are just indoctrinated to some extent.

[binaryemperor]

If I had the option of handing the collector base to the council I would consider it, but to be honest what could they do with it besides try to study it and eventually turn to husks?

[Trauma3x]

Ummm... all the signs point to the Coucil has been "Indoctranated" they are agent of the Reapers. Go to the coedex look up either Reaper or "idoctrination"

[Spartas Husky]

Trauma3x wrote...

Ummm... all the signs point to the Coucil has been "Indoctranated" they are agent of the Reapers. Go to the coedex look up either Reaper or "idoctrination"

like a said a wile ago. They give me a bad vibe,,, mostly the Turian

[Collider]

It's a plot device. I imagine them to come through sometime during ME3.

[Destinfire]

DPSSOC wrote...

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Furthermore they brought you back from the dead you owe them.  Or you're even in the Sole Survivor's case.

Murderers dont murder everyone, they even do good things now and then.  Doesn't change the fact that they're murderers. It's a bit like Samara and her quote:  "Do I really need to know that a criminal is a devoted father?"  If Cerberus brought Shepard back, it was only for Cerberus's own agenda.  They brought Shepard back from the dead, and....?  Doesn't change the fact that Cerberus killed hundreds of humans, being the very people that Shepard seeks to protect.  Shepard owes Cerberus nothing.  They are still criminals on the scale of Mengele.

Checks google...ah.  I would argue that just because they're criminals doesn't change what they did for Shepard.  Shepard owes Cerberus his/her life, they gave it back to him/her, whether that balances out everything they've done is at the discretion of the player, but in my mind it certainly makes up for anything they've done to Shepard personally.

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...
In any event, and to avoid straying too far from the opening post, it still makes no sense to deny the existence of Reapers to the very agent which saved the council's collective arses from the Reapers, whether said agent may or may not be involved with Cerberus.  On a need-to-know basis, Shepard already knows, so the cat's already out of the bag.  Once again, if the council really did believe that Reapers existed and were just covering it up, then the last person they'd be dishonest with about it is the one man who does know the truth when in a council meeting.

IMO, the council aren't being dicks, nor are they being strategic.  It makes no sense with respect to their treatment of Shepard.  They are utterly brain dead stupid, and I mean that in a plot-device illogical fashion.

I think the original thought is they aren't denying the existence of the Reapers to Shepard, meaning they're not trying to hide the Reaper's existence from him/her, they're denying the existence of the Reapers for Shepard.  Maybe I misunderstood but I think the OP was suggesting that the Council does believe in the Reapers but they pretend not to, with the exception of Anderson, in the hopes of making Shepard confide in him about what's going on with Cerberus.  By making Anderson out to be the only one on your side they hope to strengthen your trust in him enough to tell him the truth.

Ah, exacatly what I was going for. I figure sence Anderson has been working with the council for little over a year (i figure it took some time before he became a council member) he has been brought up to speed on how things need to be done and how they work. One thing the book has shown is despite the coucils diffrences and own political agendas they are a team, and an effective one at that.

[Malysoun]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

It makes no sense.  Spectre's are the Council's most trusted secret-service agents.  As such, these guys have security and information clearance that goes far and above the general military grunt, or populace.  If there's anyone in the galaxy that the council can be frank and open with over matters of galactic importance that would otherwise scare the crap out of the general populace, it would be their Spectres.  I mean, that's the job of the Spectre's, to deal with the big issues behind the scenes.

So, no.  I don't buy it for one second that the Council is "smart" in keeping one of their most elite agents in the dark over an issue that said elite agent has a direct vested interest in.

It just makes zero sense.

That's not quite how it works actually.

In real life:
Person A/B have secret level clearance
Person C/D have top secret
Person D cannot share top secret info with A or B due to lack of clearance.
Furthermore, Person C cannot share top secret with D regardless of clearance level due to compartmentalization and "need to know".
Person C is Person D's boss however and as supervisor has a need to know what D's up to in order to supervise so D can share with C.

In this case, the council is C and Shepard is D, they can't share with him because he doesn't need to know in order to do his job, but he can give them info to better make decisions.

[Kalderis]

The government will never be honest about their plans and never have the people's interests at heart, choosing instead to serve their own greed and hide behind strategically implemented propaganda.



I do apologise i meant to say Council.

[Nightwriter]

Terraneaux wrote...

Nope, you don't destroy the Collector Base because TIM can't be trusted with it.  You destroy it because you think the base is 'evil' or something.  Seriously, the Paragon option is retarded and the Renegade option is to polish TIM's ****.  I think that decision could be handled a little better - like, say, handing it over to the council or the alliance.

While I agree that the options were retarded (so true) I'm pretty sure I destroyed the base because TIM couldn't be trusted with it, and not because it was evil.

Everything in me wanted to keep that base for study. Oh, how I wanted to. But I couldn't hand it over to Cerberus.