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[TheUnusualSuspect]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Response elided

Sorry, but the content of that post was just garbage.

Dismissing in-game mechanics (omni-tool recordings) as "over thinking" means that we should just stop there.  If that's the attitude we're going to approach with analysing the story and motivations behind people's actions, then yes, anything's possible if we accept it all at a superficial level.

That is otherwise known as "click and drool" gaming.

Yes, Shep should've presented the Virmire evidence in ME1, however, but Shep had just launched a nuclear device, and would've been grounded pending a review of what occurred.  We really don't know how that one would've played out had he waited, but waiting wasn't an option for Shepard given what he knew, and that was prior to Sovereign turning up "in person".  The council's actions here are understandable at that point in time, especially while they would've been analysing the veracity of data recovered and debreifing the people present.

Comparing WW2 political history is utterly invalid.  We are not talking about a war scenario.  We are talking about intelligence gathering about a possible threat to Galactic stability.  The threat of the Reapers is not like the threat of Germany pre-WW2.  Germany didn't sail up the Thames River with a fleet lead by a Dreadnought that was 10x the size of anything else built, and start bombing London prior to England taking action.

I am not emotional, I am analysing a story element that makes no sense.  I find it frustrating that people flock to defend something that is clearly a plot-device, but has no rational explanation for it.  Once again, we are not talking about the Council talking to average citizens.  Why do you keep repeating that irrelevant point?

As for Tali and Saren, how is that relevant?  Tali provided evidence that Saren was responsible for Eden Prime.  ie. the Council has established a pattern here of accepting recorded evidence.  Shepard would've provided recorded evidence about a developing threat of Sovereign and the Reapers, a threat which materialised at the end of ME1, and now in ME2 they dismiss it?  That makes no sense.

Your last paragraph was just poor.  If someone showed me a video of a vampire, I'd be hesitent to believe it until said vampire turned up at my house and started destroying the place.  THEN I'd consider that it warranted further investigation to prevent it from happening again.

I don't hate ME2 as a game.  I find certain aspects of ME2's plot-line to be insulting to the player base.

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 26 mars 2010 - 08:43 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

Sorry, but the content of that post was just garbage.

Look at your own responses buddy.

Dismissing in-game mechanics (omni-tool recordings) as "over thinking" means that we should just stop there.  If that's the attitude we're going to approach with analysing the story and motivations behind people's actions, then yes, anything's possible if we accept it all at a superficial level.

That is otherwise known as "click and drool" gaming.

There's analyzing a story and analyzing a story. But you're trying to use a minor detail that is mentioned at the bottom of a codex entry about video feeds being attached to armor as evidence that ME2 was 'thought out poorly'. I would understand if it was something that's nailed into our heads at the start of the game, like how humanity is a newcomer to the Citadel or the purpose of the Spectres, etc. But a minor detail of a minor codex entry is a slip up I can honestly see any developer, director, or author making.

Yes, Shep should've presented the Virmire evidence in ME1, however, but Shep had just launched a nuclear device, and would've been grounded pending a review of what occurred.  We really don't know how that one would've played out had he waited, but waiting wasn't an option for Shepard given what he knew, and that was prior to Sovereign turning up "in person".  The council's actions here are understandable at that point in time, especially while they would've been analysing the veracity of data recovered and debreifing the people present.

Error with your bolded statement. The nuclear device on Virmire wasn't the reason they grounded Shepard. They were tired of his ramblings about the Reapers and refused his request to pursue Saren to Ilos. If he has time to return to the Citadel in the first place, he should have no problem showing them all this evidence.

And we don't know how the conversation would have played out in ME2 either, do we? Shepard however has been out of action for two years and he doesn't have time to sit and play politician with the Council, which is still attempting to rebuild since the Battle of the Citadel and which doesn't want to believe in the Reapers anyway.

Comparing WW2 political history is utterly invalid.  We are not talking about a war scenario.  We are talking about intelligence gathering about a possible threat to Galactic stability.  The threat of the Reapers is not like the threat of Germany pre-WW2.  Germany didn't sail up the Thames River with a fleet lead by a Dreadnought that was 10x the size of anything else built, and start bombing London prior to England taking action.

I believe your argument is all about 'evidence' and how it should impact politicians' decisions. It was pretty clear that there was evidence at the time that Germany was massing armaments. Britain and other countries stuck with a policy of appeasement, hoping to avoid conflict by yielding to Germany's demands only for everything to burst into flames. The point here is that was a clear illustration of a well-known threat and they chose to act otherwise.

You keep discussing 'all the evidence' that the Council should have. They haven't spoken to Sovereign, hence they can deny him as sentient or the existence of any other Reapers. The fact that he was leading a fleet of Geth and they send Shepard after the Geth at the start of ME2 reflects this.

I am not emotional, I am analysing a story element that makes no sense.  I find it frustrating that people flock to defend something that is clearly a plot-device, but has no rational explanation for it.  Once again, we are not talking about the Council talking to average citizens.  Why do you keep repeating that irrelevant point?

You reveal your inadequaces with the bolded statement. Let me think here...because politics are all about people.
If you can't accept that fact, I can't help you. As a politician, you are screwed if the average citizen thinks you're insane. This is why it's important. However much you want to complaint about it, even if the Council believed it they might never be able to convince the population. You don't just decide 'Let's go to war!' and send out the fleets. More than anything, you'll be out of a job if you attempt that approach with your citizens. So like it or not, since we're discussing the Council which is made of politicians, who depend on civilian input.

As for Tali and Saren, how is that relevant?  Tali provided evidence that Saren was responsible for Eden Prime.  ie. the Council has established a pattern here of accepting recorded evidence.  Shepard would've provided recorded evidence about a developing threat of Sovereign and the Reapers, a threat which materialised at the end of ME1, and now in ME2 they dismiss it?  That makes no sense.

*sigh* Yet again, they do not believe Shepard. They've seen how audio recordings can be damning as evidence from how Shepard/Tali used it against Saren. Hence, why would they risk him recording a conversation with them in which they might have admitted the existence of the Reapers? Please, answer this damned question.

Your last paragraph was just poor.  If someone showed me a video of a vampire, I'd be hesitent to believe it until said vampire turned up at my house and started destroying the place.  THEN I'd consider that it warranted further investigation to prevent it from happening again.

I bolded the especially relevant part. You see, this is all your average citizen gets to experience. This is why they would react less than positively if the Council believed/tried to

I think it's your analytical skills which are poor. You see, let's talk about what a 'Reaper' is.

What a Reaper is: a race of super-advanced sentient machines which periodically exterminate all organic life every 50k years.
 
What the Council saw: A super-advanced ship, leading a fleet of Geth.

Do you see the difference? The Council saw a Reaper [as in one] leading a fleet of Geth, not a fleet of Reapers as it was supposed to be. They did not converse with Sovereign, so they do not even know that it was sentient. The only thing they had to concede was it is 'highly advanced'. Furthermore, we do know that the Geth haven't been seen beyond the Perseus Veil for Centuries and this thing was leading a fleet of Geth. Actually if I'm remembering correctly, the Council did assume that it was an advanced Geth warship when they first mentioned it.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Believe what you want. I am total opposition to your take on the situation. End of story.

[GuardianAngel470]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

Sorry, but the content of that post was just garbage.

Look at your own responses buddy.

Dismissing in-game mechanics (omni-tool recordings) as "over thinking" means that we should just stop there.  If that's the attitude we're going to approach with analysing the story and motivations behind people's actions, then yes, anything's possible if we accept it all at a superficial level.

That is otherwise known as "click and drool" gaming.

There's analyzing a story and analyzing a story. But you're trying to use a minor detail that is mentioned at the bottom of a codex entry about video feeds being attached to armor as evidence that ME2 was 'thought out poorly'. I would understand if it was something that's nailed into our heads at the start of the game, like how humanity is a newcomer to the Citadel or the purpose of the Spectres, etc. But a minor detail of a minor codex entry is a slip up I can honestly see any developer, director, or author making.

Yes, Shep should've presented the Virmire evidence in ME1, however, but Shep had just launched a nuclear device, and would've been grounded pending a review of what occurred.  We really don't know how that one would've played out had he waited, but waiting wasn't an option for Shepard given what he knew, and that was prior to Sovereign turning up "in person".  The council's actions here are understandable at that point in time, especially while they would've been analysing the veracity of data recovered and debreifing the people present.

Error with your bolded statement. The nuclear device on Virmire wasn't the reason they grounded Shepard. They were tired of his ramblings about the Reapers and refused his request to pursue Saren to Ilos. If he has time to return to the Citadel in the first place, he should have no problem showing them all this evidence.

And we don't know how the conversation would have played out in ME2 either, do we? Shepard however has been out of action for two years and he doesn't have time to sit and play politician with the Council, which is still attempting to rebuild since the Battle of the Citadel and which doesn't want to believe in the Reapers anyway.

Comparing WW2 political history is utterly invalid.  We are not talking about a war scenario.  We are talking about intelligence gathering about a possible threat to Galactic stability.  The threat of the Reapers is not like the threat of Germany pre-WW2.  Germany didn't sail up the Thames River with a fleet lead by a Dreadnought that was 10x the size of anything else built, and start bombing London prior to England taking action.

I believe your argument is all about 'evidence' and how it should impact politicians' decisions. It was pretty clear that there was evidence at the time that Germany was massing armaments. Britain and other countries stuck with a policy of appeasement, hoping to avoid conflict by yielding to Germany's demands only for everything to burst into flames. The point here is that was a clear illustration of a well-known threat and they chose to act otherwise.

You keep discussing 'all the evidence' that the Council should have. They haven't spoken to Sovereign, hence they can deny him as sentient or the existence of any other Reapers. The fact that he was leading a fleet of Geth and they send Shepard after the Geth at the start of ME2 reflects this.

I am not emotional, I am analysing a story element that makes no sense.  I find it frustrating that people flock to defend something that is clearly a plot-device, but has no rational explanation for it.  Once again, we are not talking about the Council talking to average citizens.  Why do you keep repeating that irrelevant point?

You reveal your inadequaces with the bolded statement. Let me think here...because politics are all about people.
If you can't accept that fact, I can't help you. As a politician, you are screwed if the average citizen thinks you're insane. This is why it's important. However much you want to complaint about it, even if the Council believed it they might never be able to convince the population. You don't just decide 'Let's go to war!' and send out the fleets. More than anything, you'll be out of a job if you attempt that approach with your citizens. So like it or not, since we're discussing the Council which is made of politicians, who depend on civilian input.

As for Tali and Saren, how is that relevant?  Tali provided evidence that Saren was responsible for Eden Prime.  ie. the Council has established a pattern here of accepting recorded evidence.  Shepard would've provided recorded evidence about a developing threat of Sovereign and the Reapers, a threat which materialised at the end of ME1, and now in ME2 they dismiss it?  That makes no sense.

*sigh* Yet again, they do not believe Shepard. They've seen how audio recordings can be damning as evidence from how Shepard/Tali used it against Saren. Hence, why would they risk him recording a conversation with them in which they might have admitted the existence of the Reapers? Please, answer this damned question.

Your last paragraph was just poor.  If someone showed me a video of a vampire, I'd be hesitent to believe it until said vampire turned up at my house and started destroying the place.  THEN I'd consider that it warranted further investigation to prevent it from happening again.

I bolded the especially relevant part. You see, this is all your average citizen gets to experience. This is why they would react less than positively if the Council believed/tried to

I think it's your analytical skills which are poor. You see, let's talk about what a 'Reaper' is.

What a Reaper is: a race of super-advanced sentient machines which periodically exterminate all organic life every 50k years.
 
What the Council saw: A super-advanced ship, leading a fleet of Geth.

Do you see the difference? The Council saw a Reaper [as in one] leading a fleet of Geth, not a fleet of Reapers as it was supposed to be. They did not converse with Sovereign, so they do not even know that it was sentient. The only thing they had to concede was it is 'highly advanced'. Furthermore, we do know that the Geth haven't been seen beyond the Perseus Veil for Centuries and this thing was leading a fleet of Geth. Actually if I'm remembering correctly, the Council did assume that it was an advanced Geth warship when they first mentioned it.

Your discussion is moot. I will concede that it would be politically idiotic to mobilize the militaries on the word of one man and his team, but the council refused to do anything.  At all.  They could have done so much.  Implement mobilization plans, train existing soldiers to be ready for the possibility of an attack (Although this is what all militaries do in theory, in practice most militaries aren't ready to mobilize immediately in times of peace), recruit more soldiers under the disguise of preparation for a possible attack from the terminus systems(Themistocles anyone?), and all this could be done without upsetting the people while still pleasing shepard, who they should definitely want to please because if you did it right shepard commands the quarian, geth, krogan, and rachni forces.

Even if they don't necessarily believe shepard they could still take these steps for relatively little cost.  As opposed to what they would lose of they were wrong, it is politically and militarily unsound to do nothing.  If he is wrong then we wasted billions of credits.  If he is right and we do nothing we lose thousands of millions of lives.  The latter is more important than the former.  At least the turian councilor would understand the military aspect.  Pearl Habor is a perfect example of what happens when the military chooses to do nothing in the face of a warning.  Completely avoidable loss of life.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

The turian is a dick. But in general they are being strategic, they work based on the power they have, not abusing it and make their decisions based on evidence and facts.


I have a crush on the asari. <3

I want her on the Normandy for Yeoman or squad member. 

[BaladasDemnevanni]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Your discussion is moot. I will concede that it would be politically idiotic to mobilize the militaries on the word of one man and his team, but the council refused to do anything.  At all.  They could have done so much.  Implement mobilization plans, train existing soldiers to be ready for the possibility of an attack (Although this is what all militaries do in theory, in practice most militaries aren't ready to mobilize immediately in times of peace), recruit more soldiers under the disguise of preparation for a possible attack from the terminus systems(Themistocles anyone?), and all this could be done without upsetting the people while still pleasing shepard, who they should definitely want to please because if you did it right shepard commands the quarian, geth, krogan, and rachni forces.

Yes, they didn't do anything. But if they don't believe what you have to say, why would they? Again, of Sovereign all they saw was an advanced Geth Warship. I would understand everyone's point if they spoke to it directly, but it's just as probable from their position that he was a mere ship. The problem with your assumption is that it's operating under the immediate assumption that they believe Shepard. From their point of view, the situation is this:

A. Believe in the Reapers, meaning great action must be taken. Fleets must be readied, the people notified, etc. It also means It also means we ourselves are believing an ancient race of highly advanced machines will be coming (at some point) from Dark Space to destroy us, which might make everyone question if they are insane.
 
B. Assume/Pretend to yourselves and everyone that it was a Geth warship. We now can focus on replenishing our losses and returning to galactic harmony. We can assume Shepard is just a crazy fool, especially since he has no real proof beyond his own statements that the ship was sentient.

Even if they don't necessarily believe shepard they could still take these steps for relatively little cost.  As opposed to what they would lose of they were wrong, it is politically and militarily unsound to do nothing.  If he is wrong then we wasted billions of credits.  If he is right and we do nothing we lose thousands of millions of lives.  The latter is more important than the former.  At least the turian councilor would understand the military aspect.  Pearl Habor is a perfect example of what happens when the military chooses to do nothing in the face of a warning.  Completely avoidable loss of life.

It depends what you consider 'relatively little' cost. I'm not certain how the economy of ME works precisely, but you only prepare for threats which you have a reasonable degree to believe exist and will attack. The population would also notice if suddenly their taxes sky-rocketed to pay for Reaper expenses. Plus how you think they would train their soldiers against a Reaper threat precisely? We've fought a total of one. We might be able to analyze its technology, but I don't quite see how they would go about running simulations, etc. Who's to say if the others all operate in the exact same way?

My point is that ultimately yes, they could have done so much to prepare, but that would require they admit the Reapers exist. And for some, that is not an easy thing to do. It means acknowledging that every organic species has been successfully harvested and that our lives are on the very line. If they were trying to be reasonable, they should have considered the possibility that Sovereign was more than it appeared. But people lie to themselves  all the time, this is just another case.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 27 mars 2010 - 12:56 .

[slackbheep]

I too assume that the council is playing dumb to some extent, but also accept that Shepard has time and time again provided zero evidence and made grandiose claims at the same time. Just because he's a hero doesn't mean they can afford to believe every word he says especially when the council seems to know for a fact that mobilizing their fleet where Shepard wants it would cause retaliation from other governments.

That said, I think it's also possible that The Illusive Man is trying to control information about their current crisis, in order to let his ace in the hole take care of things and give Cerberus/Humanity a big win politically.