97 réponses à ce sujet

[MelodicCure]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

The Diablo games would work fine on a console

???

Oh I'm sacrificed a few hotkeys, shame I have to dial them up SUCH A PAIN

Hell the first diablo was on console, don't know how it played though... but alas both of those games have nothing preventing them from being on a console.

Personally I think the idea of them on a console is stupid.  Kind of a like a car in space.  However that being an opinion I think Star Craft and most RTS games are a pain to play on a console unless you hook up a keyboard and mouse and I don't think that is an opinion.  I sold my xbox 360 long time ago and don't expact the developer's to force me to go and get  it.  I have a PS3 but that is just my bluuuuuuuuuuuray player lol.

Modifié par MelodicCure, 25 mars 2010 - 07:39 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Also the first Starcraft was on a console and it sucked on console. The first C&C game was to, but it worked because that game was so damn slow to begin with. After playing C&C 3: Kane's Wrath or whatever that expansion it is clear that devs can get an RTS to work decently on a console, so yeah


Still a pain in comparison though

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 25 mars 2010 - 07:40 .

[MelodicCure]

You just said it yourself that it is slow. Why should I suffer playing an RTS game with a controller when I can drag and select all my units so easily with a mouse? I would feel like a ****** buying those games for the console. MY favorite being Sins of the Solar Empire which I know would be torture with a controller  Then again sports games and racing games suck on the PC....so really you have to choose your preference of games and then what you play them on. 

I like the PC version of Dragon Age for the further away view and more hot keys.  Also the tradition and feeling of it as I used to play the BG and Ice Wind Dale games.

Modifié par MelodicCure, 25 mars 2010 - 07:43 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Oh god Homeworld also would be a horrendous experience

[Andari_Surana]

AlanC9 wrote...

I don't know if that poll is producing any useful data. I've never felt enough interest to answer it. It's not like Bio needs to find out from polls anyway.

Depends what u find interesting.  Initially some people responded to threads like this that hard core gamers that want more difficulty are less than "2%" or the "extreme minority."   At least one of these polls were created by someone trying to prove one of those viewpoints. 

I don't think anyone who clicks on the results of the poll can legitimately make those points anymore...
And if thats all the poll does, it more than served its purpose...

Sure i'd love a mod or bioware to legitimately conduct a poll themselves at the top of the forum on this issue, but doing so would create an expectation they would use the feedback...   They have an interest in understanding their player base.  At least the results of the current polling should make them consider doing just that... 

[MelodicCure]

I don't think the games are getting easier though for the casual gamers. That is why difficulty settings exist. I think Awkening just has a difficulty bug. It is way easier than origins. If you play a casual game like uncharted 2 even the difficutly setting hard is going to cause you some pain...it did for me. I think the issue is games are getting less complicated. I kind of don't like that. BG1 has a mass of useless items, stats you had no clue what they did (lol), and a load of spells some useless and some not. Now they stream lined it. I swear there is only 3 types of looks for the armor in the entire game and the spell book while it has more usefull spells is weak sauce in the amount of them. Why do we have just heal and heal all now? where is heal wound heal serious wound and so on?

Not really angry or complaining since I think games are actually getting more developer time however just putting some thoughts out there.

Modifié par MelodicCure, 25 mars 2010 - 07:57 .

[dbkkk]

Let's not confuse difficulty with fun / enjoyment. Most people out there want to be entertained not necessarily challenged and the more they are entertained the more they are willing to pay for the sequel / expansion. Doesn't matter whether we are talking PC or console.



Personally, I like high difficulty games, but let's face it there aren't almost any out there. What I liked about DAO (on the PC) is that is was very configurable.

First time I played, I loved the story and characters but the gameplay was frustratingly easy on nightmare.



So I went out and got Combat Tweaks, which fixes oodles of combat bugs, balances a ton of loopholes and OP talents / spells, and provides for optional difficulty setting tweaks. Then I spent a couple of hours finalizing the tweaks and voila I am on my fifth playthrough, and still fighting some apocalyptic battles. But I wager that the vast majority of players would freak at such settings.



What irks me the most is that there are so many bugs / flaws in the combat mechanics in vanilla that most people are ignorant of and Bioware refuses to fix. Many of these bugs gimp your enemies as well. And yet when Awakening comes out all people complain about on the forums (besides crashes and rightfully so) are DLC items that don't transfer, being unable to engage in yet more romances. or complete acknowledgment of every decision they made in Origins. But let's ignore the slate of new talents that practically insta-gib 90% of the mobs.



And please I have played on a PC for a couple of decades now and PC gamers are by no means an enlightened group. Go to dragon age nexus and see what mods top the list. More than half are mods to show more cleavage or to augment the DAO sex scenes. Visually interesting for some? Sure. Enlightened? If so, we have a different definition of the term.

[Dragon Age1103]

fsfsfsfsfsfsf wrote...

I really like your game. Origins and Awakening are fun and I was pretty impressed. It's so well presented, and the graphics are a big leap forward from the NWN games, as is the engine in general.

One thing I would say however, is that this game is a classic example of the new ultimate challenge facing gamers and game developers. You big game developers are now stuck in this catch-22 position, where your quest for money is at odds with making good games. It's a tough business, so the goal of most companies seems to be to appeal squarely at the mass market. If all 90 zillion console gamers, all rush out and buy your game, then you are in the money. The problem of course, is that to appeal to the mass market, you have to dumb down the game for the dumb mass market gamer. This sometimes isn't an issue, for example, the GTA games are a bit boneheaded by nature, so it doesn't really affect them as severely. But particularly with games like this, it's a big issue. If you simplify a game like this for the average Joe, cheezey puff munching console gamer, you are going to alienate the old school, more hardcore RPG fans who are perfectly suited to this kind of game.

You should remember, that we don't really have anywhere else to go. The Diablo, The Witcher, Two Worlds, Elder Scrolls and Gothic series are all very simple, 'Action-RPG' style games. So if we want a bit more of a complex RPG game, with proper stats and challenging puzzles and combat, these Bioware games are one of the only places to go.

So what do you do? If you go for the mass market, you WILL alienate us. You may make more money that way though, but you will then be competing directly with all those games I mentioned above. I have to wonder if it would be better to keep your focus on the other kind of gamer. There may be less of us, but we will be far more passionate, enthusiastic, and complementary of a more complex game, and that may serve you better in the long run.

I'm currently on the fence a bit. I quite enjoyed the game, but I really miss the challenge of the Baldur's Gate games. It's been a long time, but I remember in Baldur's Gate 2 when I would mis-place a fireball, and it would completely fry my own poor group. Game over. Every battle was serious business, and although it verged on tedium at times, it got incredibly addictive... I must micro manage every encounter to perfection, being very efficient with mana, being very careful what spells I use and where I aim them, and making sure my tanks actually take the brunt of the damage to minimise the amount of healing I need to do, etc..etc.. In Dragon Age though, none of this is an issue. There's no limit to the number of times we can cast each spell, mana is almost endless now, with full regeneration a few seconds after each battle. And I can purposely land a fireball on my own group and it doesn't really matter. Half of them resist it completely most of the time, and even the ones who do get hit aren't too injured. And with an endless stream of automatic heals from the Cleansing Aura, and the easy peasy 1 click full group heals, taking damage doesn't really matter anyway.

So the result is that I just run around click click clicking my way through each 'battle' without any real thought or effort. Awakenings in particular has become quite simple, and hack 'n slashy. It's just about good enough overall that I still enjoy myself, but it's no Baldur's Gate... I now just think of it as yet another action-RPG, and that will harm my enthusiasm in the future, in real terms. For example, if a new expansion comes out in the next few months, I may not even pay it any attention, especially if I'm playing Two Worlds 2 or Mafia 2 or any of the other big fun games on the horizon. I would go out of my way for a new Baldur's Gate though, but games like that just don't exist anymore.

   I haven't checked the responses yet but I assume you have a lot of hate. lol. Consoles gamers do not like hearing or admiting they bring down game values. lol. I enjoyed reading every last word of your post & couldn't agree more. Dragon Age is a rare gem. I miss having a challenge but lickily we have toolsets so modders often bump up the difficulty which helps a lot. Waiting for a mod like that with Awakening, since I think the expansion could be TWICE as much fun if we were forced intotough situations that made us fully utilize our new abilities to their fullest strengths.
   Anyways great post but I wouldn't count on it since money makes the world go around in EA's eyes. Obviously the launch with Awakening was rushed & the next big installment of the Dragon Age seems rushed as well since they already set a date in stone. Hope it doesn't come up short & isn't directed even more towards consoles.

[Onyx Jaguar]

I hate to tell you but Consoles have caught up feature wise, which is why I jumped ship back in 2007. I'd rather put in a game and have it work than to have to sort through technical issues.

[Dragon Age1103]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I hate to tell you but Consoles have caught up feature wise, which is why I jumped ship back in 2007. I'd rather put in a game and have it work than to have to sort through technical issues.

 
  Sorry but you couldn't be more wrong. lol. The xbox 360 is bay far the most superior platform when it comes to online multiplayer & the most advanced abilities in that aspect of gaming. The PS3 is just a console but both are EXTREMELY limited. PC is running DX11 with tons of new features that could take a lot of stress off your hardware & really help games look much better & run much smoother. Basically the looks of DX10 with the smoother performance of DX9(consoles/ super dated looking). Consoles hold back PC b/c it is easier to make a dumbed down game for the masses than a deep, challenging game like Origins. So Devs work more towards consoles which makes PC suffer in game content & results in the new DX11 be used less often or to its full potenial.
   So sorry but you are very wrong hardware wise but online communications the 360 is far superior to PC or PS3 but at least PC has after market programs that can be used with games to try & catch up.
  Very few devs can unleash a ridiculous amount of power out of their engines & the consoles hardware but Bad Company 2, Just Cause 2, & assume Crysis 2 have & will do a great job of balancing performance(FPS & bugs) with beautiful graphics & realistic physics. This is still very rare but sometimes you don't need complex games for them to be fun!

[Onyx Jaguar]

I didn't say anything about Hardware. PS3 and XBox 360 run ancient hardware by Intel/AMD/Nvidia standards.

[Feraele]

Come on guys..lets not turn this into platform wars..lol

[mutantspicy]

Difficulty is the wrong word. When it comes to difficulty, DA is easily as difficult if not more than D&D based games.

I think right word is complexity, specifically ruleset complexity.   One that allows for better customization of character builds.  More classes, multi-classing.  One that is opened ended and is affected by your build decisions.  With DA, if you get high enough you can essentially just fill in all the blanks. I was hoping for A more complex ruleset, that forces you use strategy, with your talent usage.

I think DA was a great game, and no I don't think its unbalanced. Some of the spells are overpowered, and Bioware has been addressing that in their patches.

However, many of us, have been waiting for Dragonage for like 5 to 6 years, I think why you get some of this criticism from the old DnD guys, is that we were expecting in that development time we would have gotten a ruleset that was more advanced than Dnd. Instead we got a more advanced game engine with an epic beyond proportion story. But a better ruleset, no we got an advanced MMO in terms of gameplay. There's nothing wrong Action RPG's, two of my personal favs are Jade Empire and the Witcher. However, with dragonage I was hoping for more strategy with a ruleset that surpasses Dnd, simply because I've been following the development of this game for like 6 years. And being told that this was the successor to BG, lead me down that path of expectation.

That said, I'm glad of the effort. Because essentially they are trying to meld the concept of Action RPG with RTS elements, but its not on par in the strategy department. But I think it could be in the future.

Modifié par mutantspicy, 25 mars 2010 - 01:12 .

[fsfsfsfsfsfsf]

Been some good replies!

p.s. Not sure what is going on with the formatting of my posts... It's all very spaced out.
p.p.s For the record, I like Dragon Age far more than Oblivion.

Drake Sigar wrote...

Of course Dragon Age is easy. We're hardcore RPGers who've tackled the most balls out frustrating RPG games there are. We laughed in Sarevok's face, escaped Sar-Sargoth, trapped Khull-Khuum, saved vault 13, travelled the multiverse and seduced a lot of elven maidens. And I mean A LOT!

But did you notice the flood of complaints claiming Dragon Age is too hard? And it wasn't just the players. Practically every magazine or site I read had "too hard" listed under as a negative point, albeit a minor one.

Yes that was worrying

I think it could just be a learning curve though for people. I bet most of the people who thought it was too hard, don't know the basics of having a warrior type "tank", while the others do the damage. If you have a party full of rogues and healers and stuff, it's not going to work very well. I think with some simple guides, most people could get up to speed, and then they would appreciate the challenge.

I hope..

Mintyone wrote...

its really despressing, and reading the fanboys praise recent games makes me feel really old. They just dont know what quality used to be, and thats the truth. Standards have fallen. Maybe its intentional; lower peoples expectations, bribe the review sites, get good sales for low investment and you have happy shareholders....

Yeah. I doubt it's a conspiracy actually, I think it's just a general slipping of standards year after a year. I was a gamer in the 80's too, and standards slipped in the 90's, and then in the 00's, and now we are in the 10's, it's been a long time... Plenty of times for a gradual shift to have a big effect.

I personally think it is the same with music too, and a lot of other cultural things. Think of the big bands of the 60's and 70's like The Who, The Doors, The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath etc... and then look at what people are listening to now... Lady Gaga and all that. Standards have slipped a LOT. So I think gaming is the same. I think it has even happened in movies too. I'm not really sure if there is a solution. Like you said, it's just depressing. It wouldn't be so bad if I was a teenager or early 20's because I wouldn't know any different. But being old enough to see the change from start to finish is not nice.

Rendar666 wrote...

Are you serious? I'm am so annoyed by this insulting of "common", "Average Joe cheeto munching couch sitting gamers". It's ******* insulting and you need to stop. You literally called gamers who don't play RPGs dumb:

you have to dumb down the game for the *dumb mass* market gamer.

I'm getting sick of this ****. You are insulting an entire group of people because they don't play something you like. Your just a Gamer **** and as such I cannot, and will not, ever respect someone like you. Throw you MASSIVE ego out the window and ******* grow up.

It's true though I'm afraid. You can get as angry as you want, but it wont change anything. Play old games, and play new games, and then see for yourself.

Macadami wrote...

Here's the deal....Bioware could've released Dragon Age: Origins with tons of more character builds, much harder combat, complex attack/defense/armor setup(that made an actual difference in game) and basically just retain all of the things us 'hardcore' RPG fans love.......AND ALL OF YOU PEOPLE WOULD"VE STILL LOVED IT.

You bought this game because it's made by Bioware who is synonymous for creating good entertainment. A lot of you would've probably had a very difficult time on hard/nightmare but eventually when you learned the ins and outs(learning is fun kids) you'd completely agree with the OP.

Yes! That's exactly what I hope. And once they learned it, they would appreciate it and feel the same way.

AlanC9 wrote...

fsfsfsfsfsfsf wrote...
The problem with "growing with the new market" though is that at the moment they seem to be trying to satisfy both, and I'm not sure that's possible. I think they need to go one way or the other.

Get rid of the friendly fire, get rid of the full party and just have one "hero", get rid of the toolset, and go for a pure action RPG like all the other action RPG's out there and it might stand a better chance. Or go the other way and satisfy the likes of me and the legion of old Baldur's Gate fans.

I don't know if they are managing to satisfy both types of gamer at the moment, or are they trying to satisfy both but in fact disappointing both types. I'm sure they will do the right thing, whatever is best for them and EA. At least I had my say.

I'm still looking for some evidence of an actual problem. Dragon Age and Mass Effect are both successful games. You're saying that they somehow won't be in the future, but what's this based on?

It's based on games that do ok, well enough to get a sequel, but then people quickly get bored of it and move on to something else. Games like Dungeon Siege that aim squarely at the mass market, but forget how fickle the mass market is... As soon as something prettier comes along, they are instantly discarded and forgotten, with no chance of a comeback.

They are the "New Kids on the Block" of gaming. It wouldn't be so bad if they make zillions of dollars during their time in the limelight, but if they don't, then they screwed themselves. The old way was different, with games like Baldur's Gate, their goal was to make the greatest game they could possibly make, and the consequence of that is that people are still drooling over it over a decade later.

Which is best? Only time and sales figures vs the costs will tell. But I'm happy to let companies like Bioware know, there are still some of us serious gamers out there. And we will choose gameplay any day, over expensive graphics, voice overs, and Morrigan's boobs.

Modifié par fsfsfsfsfsfsf, 25 mars 2010 - 02:07 .

[AlanC9]

TheMadCat wrote...

I'm more curious as to why you think the old Bioware games were a challenge, I'd say DA:O was one of the more difficult games I've played in their lineup (Though still far to easy even on nightmare) and I've played pretty much everything from BG1 and on. They've never been seeking the mind numbing challenge, as they've always been of the "sell to as wide an audience as possible" mind set. I don't think Bioware has changed much since the old days, other then getting stuff our more frequent I suppose but I'm sure that's mostly due to Ricitello cracking the whip.

Off topic here but Alan, are you the same AlanC9 over at the Paradox forums?

Yep, that's me. I keep the same handle everywhere.

I agree about the IE games' difficulty. BG2 wasn't especially tough unless you couldn't remember two or three simple rules, or just couldn't stand buffing. BG1 was sometimes tough, but not in a way you could actually do anything about (kinda like the Hoi3 supply system )

[AlanC9]

mutantspicy wrote...
I think right word is complexity, specifically ruleset complexity.   One that allows for better customization of character builds.  More classes, multi-classing.  One that is opened ended and is affected by your build decisions.  With DA, if you get high enough you can essentially just fill in all the blanks.

That's not true for mages. You can't possibly take everything before the cap.

And none of these factors were present in D&D pre-3.0, so how come the IE games keep coming up? Hell, you don't have that many  big decisions to make with a 3.0 mage, either.

[AlanC9]

fsfsfsfsfsfsf wrote...
I personally think it is the same with music too, and a lot of other cultural things. Think of the big bands of the 60's and 70's like The Who, The Doors, The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath etc... and then look at what people are listening to now... Lady Gaga and all that. Standards have slipped a LOT. So I think gaming is the same. I think it has even happened in movies too. I'm not really sure if there is a solution. Like you said, it's just depressing. It wouldn't be so bad if I was a teenager or early 20's because I wouldn't know any different. But being old enough to see the change from start to finish is not nice.

All that happened in the 60s was that the pop delivery system broke down and allowed some relatively better  (read: more elitist-friendly) material to slip into the top of the charts. People never actually had better taste. Same thing for games. 

 And you're really not just a little embarrassed to keep listing The Doors and Black Sabbath as great bands? I'd trade both of them for the New Pornographers or Death Cab For Cutie. Then again, I never really liked Black Sabbath in the first place.

It's based on games that do ok, well enough to get a sequel, but then people quickly get bored of it and move on to something else. Games like Dungeon Siege that aim squarely at the mass market, but forget how fickle the mass market is... As soon as something prettier comes along, they are instantly discarded and forgotten, with no chance of a comeback.

I'm still not seeing any case for thinking that this is true of Bio's current lineup. All I take away is that they don't completely suit your personal taste.

[katana2009]

Don't be so easily fooled, if 'cheezey puff munching gamer boy' brings in the big bucks, that's the direction Bioware's releases will take.

[AlanC9]

Andari_Surana wrote...
Sure i'd love a mod or bioware to legitimately conduct a poll themselves at the top of the forum on this issue, but doing so would create an expectation they would use the feedback...   They have an interest in understanding their player base.  At least the results of the current polling should make them consider doing just that... 

Bio doesn't need any poll. They have actual gameplay feedback. They know who's playing, who reloads and how many times, who's played ten times and who's played once, and which difficulty levels these people were actually using.

[mutantspicy]

AlanC9 wrote...

mutantspicy wrote...
I think right word is complexity, specifically ruleset complexity.   One that allows for better customization of character builds.  More classes, multi-classing.  One that is opened ended and is affected by your build decisions.  With DA, if you get high enough you can essentially just fill in all the blanks.

That's not true for mages. You can't possibly take everything before the cap.

I'll give you this one.  But it still feels like paint by numbers, because you have access to everything.  Granted the specializations are slightly exclusive, but its not like they are all that expansive.  Unlike dnd 3.0 where if you specialize in illusion, you can't use enchantment.  You're build decisions become more strategic this way.


And none of these factors were present in D&D pre-3.0, so how come the IE games keep coming up? Hell, you don't have that many  big decisions to make with a 3.0 mage, either.

You've made alot valid points.  But this is just a flatout silly statement.  Even if there was the slightest amount of truth to these words which there isn't, my thing isn't bioware should have stuck with dnd rules.  In fact I'm glad they're moving on.  Rather I wish they would have made a ruleset that allows for even more customization than dnd. When I mean customization, I don't mean you have complete access to every spell and talent in the book.  Thats basically what we have with DA.  For instance, lets say want to be Rogue-mage that specializes in fire magic and archery.  You shouldn't be allowed to access cold magic or dual weapon type talents in that scenario.  Of course that would mean fire magic and archery would have to be expansive enough to make that decision worth it.  I'm not saying they should abandon this current ruleset direction either, I just wish they would have made so that when you build your character it feels like you are creating a unique individual. 

Modifié par mutantspicy, 25 mars 2010 - 04:37 .

[Haexpane]

People have a lot on their mind about DAO apparently

[Stanley Woo]

Not really DAO: Awakenings related. If you wish to continue the discussion, please use our Off-Topic forum. Thank you.



End of line.