48 réponses à ce sujet

[DaVanguard]

Are these good choices for armor on a vanguard  Life support webing, N7 helmet, Agis vest,  Strength boost pads, and Heavy damping Gauntlets total bonuses: 20% heath, 5% barrier, 25% melee is this good?

[Tlazolteotl]

I'd go with more barrier over health.

'cos every time you charge you get % of barrier back, so the bigger your barrier, the more you get back.

[Sabresandiego]

Dont go for health, go for either shields/barrier or weapon damage.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 24 mars 2010 - 01:37 .

[Kronner]

Tlazolteotl wrote...

I'd go with more barrier over health.
'cos every time you charge you get % of barrier back, so the bigger your barrier, the more you get back.

No, you only get 250 points back no matter what (at least it seems like it). Still, getting barrier bonus is better than health bonus.

Modifié par Kronner, 24 mars 2010 - 01:45 .

[Sabresandiego]

Kronner wrote...

Tlazolteotl wrote...

I'd go with more barrier over health.
'cos every time you charge you get % of barrier back, so the bigger your barrier, the more you get back.

No, you only get 250 points back no matter what (at least it seems like it). Still, getting barrier bonus is better than health bonus.

Shields are still worth it even though charge only does 100% of base shields as a refill. Lets say your base shields are 250 and your equipment is at 15% shields, giving you 287.5 shield total. Charge will only replenish 250 of your shields, but if you have over 37.5 shield when you charge, your shields will fill to full. Charge also gives some sort of shield boost in addition to the 100% base refill but I'm not sure on the specifics of how the mechanic works. Weapon damage is another good choice but is only useful if the % increase in damage makes a difference in the amount of shotgun shots you need to kill something or strip its defenses, since shotguns are a burst damage weapon. I personally go for max shields.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 24 mars 2010 - 04:10 .

[Kurupt87]

Kronner wrote...
No, you only get 250 points back no matter what (at least it seems like it). Still, getting barrier bonus is better than health bonus.

Yeah, Kronner's right, Heavy Charge only restores your base shields, 250.
Depending on shotty, wep dmg is either good or bad, scim = good, clay = bad, evi is somewhere down the middle.
The only piece that should be universal to VG is the melee shoulders, and you got them.

[Sabresandiego]

Kurupt87 wrote...

Kronner wrote...
No, you only get 250 points back no matter what (at least it seems like it). Still, getting barrier bonus is better than health bonus.

Yeah, Kronner's right, Heavy Charge only restores your base shields, 250.
Depending on shotty, wep dmg is either good or bad, scim = good, clay = bad, evi is somewhere down the middle.
The only piece that should be universal to VG is the melee shoulders, and you got them.

Melee shoulders are great, but still not universal. Scimitar users melee much less than other shotguns and can substitue in the power damage shoulders (5% power damage) if they want like me.

[Kurupt87]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Shields are still worth it even though charge only does 100% of base shields as a refill. Lets say your base shields are 300 and your equipment is at 15% shields, giving you 345 shield total. Charge will only replenish 300 of your shields, but if you have over 45 shield when you charge, your shields will fill to full. Charge also gives some sort of double shield boost but I'm not sure on the specifics. Weapon damage is another good choice but is only useful if the % increase in damage makes a difference in the amount of shotgun shots you need to kill something or strip its defenses, since shotguns are a burst damage weapon. I personally go for max shields.

Charge will always restore base shields, no matter what the amount of shields you have at that moment, so it always gives a 250 boost. The difference between health boost and shield boost is is unimportant, as, correct me if I'm wrong, a VG health and shield have the same base value. Any boost to one will give the same amount, think of health and shield value as one big health bar, it doesn't matter which gets better because your overall health is raised.
The soldier is the only class with, I think, a bigger health pool than shield, so health upgrades are definitely better for him.

[Sabresandiego]

Kurupt87 wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

Shields are still worth it even though charge only does 100% of base shields as a refill. Lets say your base shields are 300 and your equipment is at 15% shields, giving you 345 shield total. Charge will only replenish 300 of your shields, but if you have over 45 shield when you charge, your shields will fill to full. Charge also gives some sort of double shield boost but I'm not sure on the specifics. Weapon damage is another good choice but is only useful if the % increase in damage makes a difference in the amount of shotgun shots you need to kill something or strip its defenses, since shotguns are a burst damage weapon. I personally go for max shields.

Charge will always restore base shields, no matter what the amount of shields you have at that moment, so it always gives a 250 boost. The difference between health boost and shield boost is is unimportant, as, correct me if I'm wrong, a VG health and shield have the same base value. Any boost to one will give the same amount, think of health and shield value as one big health bar, it doesn't matter which gets better because your overall health is raised.
The soldier is the only class with, I think, a bigger health pool than shield, so health upgrades are definitely better for him.

I disagree. Shields are far better than health for a vanguard. Heavy Charge restores only 100% of base shields, but if your shields are not blown off completely it will add whatever is left + the base amount restored. This increases survivabilty much more than health. Also, its not one big health bar since damage cannot bleed over from your shields into your health. You are basically invulnerable for about a half second after your shields drop most of the time.

Due to the lack of shield bleeding into health, shield upgrades arent really that important but are still better than health upgrades. It comes down to weapon damage vs shields/barrier for vanguard

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 24 mars 2010 - 02:07 .

[Kurupt87]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Melee shoulders are great, but still not universal. Scimitar users melee much less than other shotguns and can substitue in the power damage shoulders (5% power damage) if they want like me.

I, like you, am a scim VG, and I use melee constantly. I don't care that my charge does 5% more dmg, and I don't use my bonus power more than I use melee, no where near in fact. Personal preference of course, and I'm not saying one is better than the other, but the shoulders suit my playstyle (and most VG's on this board) better, there is time between scim shots to melee, and the melee stagger is a guaranteed stagger.
You use melee very infrequently and use reave alot, so the power dmg is worth it, although if you're using your pull build, why have power dmg?

[Kurupt87]

Enemy weapons all have a dmg modifier against shields/barrier, and so do more dmg. This is a big reason health is better that I haven't yet mentioned. Also, I fail to see how getting 25 more shields is better than getting 25 more health, both increase my survivability the same amount.

[Sabresandiego]

Kurupt87 wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

Melee shoulders are great, but still not universal. Scimitar users melee much less than other shotguns and can substitue in the power damage shoulders (5% power damage) if they want like me.

I, like you, am a scim VG, and I use melee constantly. I don't care that my charge does 5% more dmg, and I don't use my bonus power more than I use melee, no where near in fact. Personal preference of course, and I'm not saying one is better than the other, but the shoulders suit my playstyle (and most VG's on this board) better, there is time between scim shots to melee, and the melee stagger is a guaranteed stagger.
You use melee very infrequently and use reave alot, so the power dmg is worth it, although if you're using your pull build, why have power dmg?

If you use melee constantly than those shoulders are right for you. Excessive meelee isnt necessary for the scimitar user however. Melee does two things for you as a scimitar user, it staggers and it saves ammo. It also does good damage but the negative is that it locks you into melee range whereas you could be moving towards cover for better survivability. Thats why I personally use melee immediately after my first shot after charging unless I transition into a biotic combo, after which I fire the scim full auto. I also use melee to stagger or to just beat the crap out of people for fun, but the melee shoulders arent necessary for either.

The power damage shoulders are pretty negligible but it should be noted that they increase Inferno Ammo damage, charge, pull, shockwave, reave, energy and whatever other powers you may be using. Inferno ammo is 60% of your weapon damage on health and armor, so thats a 3% damage boost right there from the shoulders.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 24 mars 2010 - 03:14 .

[Sabresandiego]

Kurupt87 wrote...

Enemy weapons all have a dmg modifier against shields/barrier, and so do more dmg. This is a big reason health is better that I haven't yet mentioned. Also, I fail to see how getting 25 more shields is better than getting 25 more health, both increase my survivability the same amount.

You always take damage to shields no matter what, however as a Vanguard you can avoid health damage completely as I do in all of my videos. Health boosts are nearly worthless to me, shields boost is great.

You should always be charging right around the time shields are blown off to prevent taking any health damage.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 24 mars 2010 - 02:26 .

[Kurupt87]

Yes, they do. Confirmed by Christina Norman in a thread about fortification a while back. It's a contributing factor to why Grunt is such a good tank, because he has armour and not shields/barrier, and the enemies don't have a modifier vs armour.

Your aversion to taking health dmg is a quirk, there's no point to it other than you can say you did it. For you, because of this personal hatred of health dmg, shields are obviously better.

Health in this game is split into health and protection, obviously, and because charge only ever restores the same amount, it doesn't matter what health you boost.

This is a strange argument from my point of view, as I'm arguing that it doesn't matter, rather than for something. Although you can get health % higher than shield, I think, so that's a good reason to plug for health.

[Sabresandiego]

Kurupt87 wrote...

Yes, they do. Confirmed by Christina Norman in a thread about fortification a while back. It's a contributing factor to why Grunt is such a good tank, because he has armour and not shields/barrier, and the enemies don't have a modifier vs armour.
Your aversion to taking health dmg is a quirk, there's no point to it other than you can say you did it. For you, because of this personal hatred of health dmg, shields are obviously better.
Health in this game is split into health and protection, obviously, and because charge only ever restores the same amount, it doesn't matter what health you boost.
This is a strange argument from my point of view, as I'm arguing that it doesn't matter, rather than for something. Although you can get health % higher than shield, I think, so that's a good reason to plug for health.

Im not arguing that shields take extra damage, I misworded my last post. Im arguing that shields are better than health for a vanguard and providing evidence.

[SpockLives]

Sabresandiego, you argue for shields over health, but the OP's post described a configuration that provided 20% health and 5% shields, for a total of 25% bonus. Can you post a configuration that nets higher or as high a bonus using shields only? I'll be convinced you're providing evidence when you post a "better" build.

[Sabresandiego]

SpockLives wrote...

Sabresandiego, you argue for shields over health, but the OP's post described a configuration that provided 20% health and 5% shields, for a total of 25% bonus. Can you post a configuration that nets higher or as high a bonus using shields only? I'll be convinced you're providing evidence when you post a "better" build.

Here is my evidence:

-Shields always take damage, health only takes damage after shields have dropped
-Shields are constantly refilled by heavy charge at a rate of 100% base shields per heavy charge
-Any shields you have when you charge are added to the 100% base shield refill from charge
-If shield damage capacity is exceeded, damage does not bleed into health granting temporary invulnerability
-The only reason you should ever take health damage is because you cannot replenish your shields through charge
-Having stronger shields gives you precious miliseconds for charge to come off cooldown

Watch the 0:50 mark of this video, where I have a sliver of shields remaining and am behind cover yet exposed on my left flank to a blue sun. Pay attention to my charge cooldown, it is still cooling down. I am wearing +15% shield equipment. If I was not wearing this shield bonus equipment I would be at my health bar right now and since charge is on cooldown I would take health damage if the blue sun were to open fire. Now lets pretend that my position is much worse than it actually is at that point in the video. Let's pretend that the one blue sun who I am exposed to is actually 5 blue suns. If I were at my health bar in that same position in the pretend scenario I would probably be dead, however due to the fact that I have a sliver of shields left I would be able to survive the attack due to the no-bleed effect and temporary invulnerability of shields dropping. Thus that sliver of shield represents far greater survivability than it appears at first glance.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 24 mars 2010 - 03:41 .

[Sabresandiego]

SpockLives wrote...

Sabresandiego, you argue for shields over health, but the OP's post described a configuration that provided 20% health and 5% shields, for a total of 25% bonus. Can you post a configuration that nets higher or as high a bonus using shields only? I'll be convinced you're providing evidence when you post a "better" build.

As for a better build, copy and pasted from my vanguard guide:

Head: Sentry Visor 5% Shields (I had to buy a Dr. Pepper for this!)
Shoulders: Amplifier Plates 5% Power Damage (Improves Incendiary ammo and Reave)
Chest: Shield harness 5% Shields
Arms: Damping Gauntlets 5% Shields
Legs: Stimulator Conduits 10% storm speed

That is my loadout. I dont use health boosting equipment but if you want you can sub in life support webbing for the stimulator conduits and melee shoulders. Final totals: 15% shields 10% health and 5% power or 25% melee

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 24 mars 2010 - 04:05 .

[Noxxxious]

I'm with sabre, simply by virtue of the fact that medigel will restore your shields at a moment's notice, eliminating the need to expose your health bar to damage in the first place. In this sense, any boost you might have to shields is further enhanced since the medigel restoration essentially buys you another round of survival before you charge anyway. In this scenario, any boost you make to health is practically irrelevant.

[Kurupt87]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Here is my evidence:

1. Shields always take damage, health only takes damage after shields have dropped
2. Shields are constantly refilled by heavy charge at a rate of 100% base shields per heavy charge
3. Any shields you have when you charge are added to the 100% base shield refill from charge
4. If shield damage capacity is exceeded, damage does not bleed into health granting temporary invulnerability
5. The only reason you should ever take health damage is because you cannot replenish your shields through charge
6. Having stronger shields gives you precious miliseconds for charge to come off cooldown

snipped and modded for numbers

1. Utterly irrelevant, evidence for what? That shields are protection? I knew that. Why does it make them better?
2. Utterly irrelevant. Why does getting 250 shields every charge make shields better than health?
3. Utterly irrelevant, any health you have when charging is "added" to your shields too. Why is having higher shields better than having higher health?
4. An argument for health if anything, the less shields you have the more often they drop, so the more often you get this "invulnerability"
5. Is an undeniable fact. Why does it mean shields are better?
6. Having more health lets you survive longer too, why are shields better?

And my own point against shields, shields take more dmg than health.

I was one of the original, back a month or so ago, to argue for shields over health. That was based entirely on charge regen'ing any bonus to shields you have. As that doesn't happen, there is no bonus to buffing shields over health.

You have provided no evidence that shields are better, while I have provided evidence that health is better, you can get it higher and it takes less dmg. What you have done is stated 6 facts of the game mechanics, none of which are evidence for why shields are better.

Edit: Apologies if I came across as harsh and/or blunt to the point of rudeness there, it's just that you present your opinions as facts of life, implying that all others are meaningless and wrong, and that irks me, especially when you do so without evidence or valid reasons.

Modifié par Kurupt87, 24 mars 2010 - 06:38 .

[SmokeyNinjas]

My bad Kurupt87 i withdraw my last statement:whistle:

Modifié par SmokeyNinjas, 24 mars 2010 - 08:51 .

[Kurupt87]

Heh don't worry about it, you can't be held up for something you didn't know about.

This is a really pointless argument overall anyway really, it's over, in the grand scheme of things, a very little amount of shields or health, especially on insanity where it'd get shot away so fast. But I suppose on insanity every advantage you can have is to the good.

I do maintain, however, that health is best, for all classes (as long as base health and base shields are the same).

Modifié par Kurupt87, 24 mars 2010 - 09:45 .

[SmokeyNinjas]

Hmm what about the two extra shield upgrades.

The redundant field generator can also refill your shields when they go down although it is random so cant count on it (just though id bring it up anyway) & after getting the hard shields upgrade shields take 20% less damage.

So my question would be is this 20% less damage to shields enough to offset the enemy weapons dmg modifier against shields/barrier?

[Kurupt87]

That, sir, is the first good point. Hmm (grabs pen and paper)

Now, I think that most enemy weapons are assault rifles, and would therefore guess their modifier to be 1.35. There are a sprinkling of SMGs in enemy hands, as well as shotgun wielding biotics (which I think use mainly Katana, with maybe a claymore on tougher commanders), which have modifier 1.5 or 1.25. The hard shields effectively reduce total dmg taken by 20%. For the AR toting enemies and a claymore enemy this reduces the bonus to near inconsequentiality (try saying that when drunk! I can barely say it now). For SMG or katana/scim foes, they still have a decent dmg increase vs shields over health.

But, for the majority of enemies (AR'ers), once you have hard shields the merits of health over shields are so small that it is completely academic (1.08 vs shields).

Edit: As for the redundant generator, like you say, it's random so basing your continued life on it is un-wise. If it gives full shields (which I think it does) rather than base shields, then it does tilt toward boosting shields.

Modifié par Kurupt87, 24 mars 2010 - 10:56 .

[Sabresandiego]

I don't mean to come across as preaching the word of god or some kind of gospel, I'm simply stating what I believe to be true. I am not going to use the phrase "in my opinion" before all of my statements, so it may sound as if what I say is some sort of law. The fact is that anybody can be wrong about almost anything. I've proven tons of people on these boards wrong about the vanguard, and I have been wrong myself in the past as well. Regardless, shields are far better for me than health is, and I believe this holds true for most vanguards. I have provided anecdotal evidence for my claims, maybe in the future I will provide more concrete evidence as to why shields are better than health for a vanguard.