154 réponses à ce sujet

[Pacifien]

I think the main reason the Quarians haven't settled a new world is because the faction clamoring to retake the homeworld is too strong. Why an opposing faction doesn't splinter off and start a colony anyway might have to do with Quarian culture. Even though they send their youth on Pilgrimage, there is that belief that they will always return, that they will always stick together. What we see of the Admiralty seems to imply that the Quarians will only proceed when they come to a consensus as a whole.

Which is funny, because that would imply the Geth belief in consensus might have its genesis in a similar belief by the Quarians.

[The Angry One]

Shandepared wrote...

Yes. It is.

The quarians had no guarantee that the geth would stay peaceful. If they sat and waited, trying to talk to the geth, then more and more geth would keep waking up. As they woke up they'd get smarter, more organized. The quarians would quickly lose the option of first strike. In short order they'd be at the geth's mercy. That is asking a hell of a lot of the quarians, to risk their entire civilization, by putting it in the hands of millions of accidental A.I. .

Ironic that you'd call their entire race stupid.

So what's the alternative? Fight a war with an army of machines you've specifically designed to be better at combat than you? Yeah that's positively inspired.
I never said it'd be perfect, but the Quarians didn't even try, and they kept on their suicidal war even when they were losing.

[Symbolz]

Shandepared wrote...

Symbol117 wrote...

I don't think it would be as that simple.  Each Geth platform would have have it's own internal power source that would probably require dismantling the unit to turn off.  It's not likely that'd have a button or switch because the believe would be they would accept a shut down command.  If they're showing intelligence it is probable they would ignore a shut down command.  Trying to dismantle a Geth who has already ignored a shut down command probably wouldn't end well, either.  Kinda narrows the options.

The quarians didn't know that most geth were already advanced enough to resist.

If they had known that then things might have turned out differnetly. I put emphasis on might. Knowing that the sentient geth were already extremely numerous would only provide the quarians with the knowledge that they had already lost control of the situation.

What should they do at that point? How would you pursue peace, Symbol117? What would you offer the geth? What would you tell the billions of people looking to you for answers? What precuations, if any, would you take against a possible geth attack? As it would be evident that the geth already have the advantageous position (the fact that they won the war proves they were stronger than the quarians) then how could you possibly negotiate with them at all? You can give them nothing that couldn't just take.

As I said, wouldn't be that simple.  What could I offer the Geth?  There isn't much I could offer them.  They're just emerging as a intelligences, a child for all purposes.  The more ideal solution would have been to have a open dialogue to help them understand the whats and whys of their existence.  Who knows, maybe there could have been a symbioic that both sides could have benefitted from.  We will never know now.  The automatic assumption that all AIs will attack organics is all based on fear.  And fear will make people limit their options: Fight or Flight

Lets face it, rightly or wrongly, the Geth were attacked.  Even an animal will fight back when backed into a cornor.  The quarians got mauled in this case because they thought they had every advantage.

[The Angry One]

Shandepared wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

So what's the alternative? Fight a war with an army of machines you've specifically designed to be better at combat than you? Yeah that's positively inspired.

It is better than sitting on your hands and waiting for the geth to make the first move. If you go to war first then even if you lose at least you might survive. It is also important to remember that the quarians thought only a few geth had achieved sentience.

If you aren't meta-gaming, if you honestly think the quarians should have gambled with their species like that, then you are the one who is stupid.

Right and how is starting a war with the Geth not gambling the species?
You assume that the Geth will make a hostile move at all when they have no reason to, when the only crime the Geth are guilty of so far is asking their taskmasters if they have a soul.
I for one don't see an attempt at peace to be a gamble at all; they could take precautions like evacuating colonies and areas with the heaviest Geth presence and fortifying elsewhere, but outright attacking was a stupid move.

[The Angry One]

Shandepared wrote...

Symbol117 wrote...


As I said, wouldn't be that simple.  What could I offer the Geth?  There isn't much I could offer them.

Then you can't negotiate.

The Geth wanted to learn.
That's what you can offer them.
Again, the first thing the Geth communicated to a Quarian was a question. Not an observation. Not a threat.
To this day the Geth call Quarians the "creators". That right there carries a certain degree of reverence.

[Weiser_Cain]

Shandepared wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...

If you could get robot that build other robots involved...

Yeah, I don't think the quarians would go for that.

WHy? It was AI they had a problem with and they haven't gone all back to nature on us.

[Symbolz]

Shandepared wrote...

Symbol117 wrote...


As I said, wouldn't be that simple.  What could I offer the Geth?  There isn't much I could offer them.

Then you can't negotiate.

Negotiations are build on interests of each party involved.  We don't know the Geth's interests.  To dismiss that negotiation isn't possible when there is a lack of information from the other party is rather arrogant, imo.

Modifié par Symbol117, 24 mars 2010 - 04:41 .

[The Angry One]

Shandepared wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Right and how is starting a war with the Geth not gambling the species?

They weren't starting a way, they thought they were just deactivating machines. Even if they had known that the geth were already sentient on the whole (which they didnt), it would be less of a gamble to start a way than to sit meekly by and hope that the geth don't.

Even the Quarians admit they were starting a war.

Okay, let me explain this to you. If you claim you want peace and then start evacuating civilians and fortifying your armed forces then you are going to tip-off the other party that you don't trust them, that you expect an attack, and plan to attack in kind.

Or you're just being cautious, as the Geth would. Performing an action that amounts to leaving the Geth alone wouldn't be an act of mistrust.

I understand your position, but your position is an inherently flawed one. You aren't seeing just how complex and delicate this kind of thing is. You might compare it to the cold war, or to the recent events in Poland in which the United States installed a missile shield. Why would a shield, a purely defensive object, threaten the Russians and provoke them to attack aggressive action?

If you need me to explain why then just ask.

Human nations are inherently suspicious of each other. The Geth were an emerging intelligence, the equivalent of children. Children aren't suspicious by nature, but will respond badly if treated unfairly.
Especially if those children happen to have guns and nuclear weapons.

[Sigma Tauri]

Weiser_Cain wrote...
It's not exactly star trek but energy is virtually free in ME, the Quarians have some of the best technical expertise around Just building infrastructure with simple heavy mechs should be easy enough for a few quarians to set up, no advanced VI needed. If you could get robot that build other robots involved then one or two quarians getting the idea say 250 years ago could have a perfect, if sterile planet ready for colonization.

Well, energy may not have been a problem, but I doubt they have a strong industrial infrastructure either. There's also the case of bringing seeding water into the planet, finding ways to counteract solar radiation, genetically enhancing organisms so they can create an organic-friendly atmsophere, adding greenhouse gases to maintain a stable comfortable temperature, etc. There's also potential environmental damage for native lifeforms.

I mean they can certainly do better than colonists in garden worlds in pre-fabricated structures, but in the long run why terraform when there are already garden worlds available?

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 24 mars 2010 - 04:41 .

[ObserverStatus]

Well that settles it, the Beth and quarians are both genocidal races and they deserve each other.

[RyrineaNara]

Yes we can, if they are sentient.

[Symbolz]

bobobo878 wrote...

Well that settles it, the Beth and quarians are both genocidal races and they deserve each other.

[Hyper Cutter]

The Angry One wrote...

The Geth didn't understand how organic society works.
You assume the Geth had any concept of civilians and children. The Geth are all equals who reach consensus. They may have assumed Quarians were the same. Only after centuries of studying organics do they now know about these things, and now they realise they went too far.
The point is the Quarians forced the hand of a newborn species that was confused and scared and happened to be armed.

They probably didn't comprehend death at the time, either. They may have assumed quarian bodies were as meaningless as their own platforms, for starters...

Solomen wrote...

The reason the council hasn't granted
colonization rights to the quarians is because turians are on the
council. Any planet that could support quarians would be perfect for
the turians as well since d-amino ecosystems are so rare.

There's that too.