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Let's be honest, Bioware!


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#401
MrNose

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MisterMonkeyBanana wrote...

Shockwave81 wrote...

BioWare should just stick to what they do best, which by most accounts, is crafting wonderful RPG experiences. 


See I disagree, I like that they were trying new things with ME2, rather than making the same old game again and again. Which is a very common complaint about Bioware games itself - that they stick to their formula of Intro bit -> go to these four places! -> plot twist -> end game. With age-old inventory mechanics and thirty skills in which only four are useful.

ME2 wasn't perfect, but I will never agree with anyone who thinks that Bioware should just rehash BG2 or Kotor again and again (unless it's making a new NWN themselves, in which case I will squee with joy).



Agreed. It was a nice changeup.  I'm only just into the Mass Effect world, and while I have issues with ME2 more than I do ME1, I like ME2 better.  The positives outweigh the negatives for me.

#402
Vena_86

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MisterMonkeyBanana wrote...

Shockwave81 wrote...

BioWare should just stick to what they do best, which by most accounts, is crafting wonderful RPG experiences. 


See I disagree, I like that they were trying new things with ME2, rather than making the same old game again and again. Which is a very common complaint about Bioware games itself - that they stick to their formula of Intro bit -> go to these four places! -> plot twist -> end game. With age-old inventory mechanics and thirty skills in which only four are useful.

ME2 wasn't perfect, but I will never agree with anyone who thinks that Bioware should just rehash BG2 or Kotor again and again (unless it's making a new NWN themselves, in which case I will squee with joy).



Yes ofcourse, BioWare should grow creatively.
However:
1. Instead of just deleting mechanics that have worked before and try something else they could have refined those mechanics, polished them and improved upon what was already there. Namely elevators, inventory system and the MAKO were flawed but their concept was not "wrong" at all and combined added a layer of depth that is missing from ME2. Instead these problematic aspects where removed, along with the good things they came with.

2. You dont make a 180° course correction within a franchise that was designed as trilogy from the start! If you want a different kind of game/movie then make a new franchise or a spin-off with a new main character and new main storyline and all is fine.
But turning your back on existing fans to fetch some new ones (with more money) like those people that change partners every other week is not at all honorable.
Continuity shall be expected within a trilogy that was designed as such all along.

Modifié par Vena_86, 19 avril 2010 - 04:35 .


#403
AlanC9

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Vena_86 wrote...
Namely elevators, inventory system and the MAKO were flawed but their concept was not "wrong" at all and combined added a layer of depth that is missing from ME2. Instead these problematic aspects where removed, along with the good things they came with.


I'll give you elevators. But the Mako missions were mostly a crashing bore, though OTOH they obviously took hardly any dev time, so I don't think they were really a waste of resourced. Don't like them? Don't do them.

As for inventory, I completely disagree. CRPG inventory conventions have been bad for a very long time; I suppose it's because CRPGs are based more on  D&D than anything else, and loot is one of the worst aspects of that system (PnP systems evolved past this kind of gameplay sometime in the early 80s). CRPG conventions are especially bad in the ME universe; they can afford to give Shepard the ship, but he has to buy his own personal weaponry?

Sure, the ME1 inventory system was bad even as CRPG inventory systems go, but yanking it altogether was the right way to go. I'm only sorry Bio didn't have the guts to do the same with KotOR.

#404
TheTWF

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I wasn't aware Mass Effect was old enough to have it's own nostalgia homosexuals.

#405
MrNose

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AlanC9 wrote...


As for inventory, I completely disagree. CRPG inventory conventions have been bad for a very long time; I suppose it's because CRPGs are based more on  D&D than anything else, and loot is one of the worst aspects of that system (PnP systems evolved past this kind of gameplay sometime in the early 80s). CRPG conventions are especially bad in the ME universe; they can afford to give Shepard the ship, but he has to buy his own personal weaponry?

Sure, the ME1 inventory system was bad even as CRPG inventory systems go, but yanking it altogether was the right way to go. I'm only sorry Bio didn't have the guts to do the same with KotOR.


I agree.  The lack of an inventory system was lovely.  I understand wanting a few "tweaks" like making bullet types an equip rather than an ability, but other than that, leave it gone!

P.S. Except for Warp Bullets.

#406
1Parmenides

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ME2 is better than ME1 in almost every way.

#407
1Parmenides

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Vena_86 wrote...
2. You dont make a 180° course correction within a franchise that was designed as trilogy from the start! If you want a different kind of game/movie then make a new franchise or a spin-off with a new main character and new main storyline and all is fine.
But turning your back on existing fans to fetch some new ones (with more money) like those people that change partners every other week is not at all honorable.
Continuity shall be expected within a trilogy that was designed as such all along.


I'm a pre-existing fan.  Bioware didn't turn their back on me.  Bioware made a 180 turn, and I'm happy. 

#408
Mister Mida

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MisterMonkeyBanana wrote...

Shockwave81 wrote...

BioWare should just stick to what they do best, which by most accounts, is crafting wonderful RPG experiences. 


See I disagree, I like that they were trying new things with ME2, rather than making the same old game again and again. Which is a very common complaint about Bioware games itself - that they stick to their formula of Intro bit -> go to these four places! -> plot twist -> end game. With age-old inventory mechanics and thirty skills in which only four are useful.

ME2 wasn't perfect, but I will never agree with anyone who thinks that Bioware should just rehash BG2 or Kotor again and again (unless it's making a new NWN themselves, in which case I will squee with joy).



How can you say that KotOR and Mass Effect (1) are the 'same old game'?

#409
Zinoviy

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Both games took elements from different things, the most obvious exmaple is the RPG vs. FPS elements between the first two games.

Differing elements doesn't make a game bad. Both games are amazing and I will be playing them for a long, long, long time.

#410
Blk_Mage_Ctype

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In all honestly, I enjoyed ME2 far more than ME1, and this is coming from a guy who loves RPGs and isn't a big fan of shooters.



The only things from ME1 that I miss are Helmet Toggle and the ability to change my squadmate's armor.

#411
MrNose

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Blk_Mage_Ctype wrote...

The only things from ME1 that I miss are Helmet Toggle and the ability to change my squadmate's armor.


Yes.  This is correct!

Also:

Elevators are a sometimes food BioWare.  They're sweet and delicious, but if we eat them too often we'll get sick.  Maybe in ME3 you can get the amount of elevators just right?  (Think Baby Bear!)

#412
Blk_Mage_Ctype

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MrNose wrote...

Blk_Mage_Ctype wrote...

The only things from ME1 that I miss are Helmet Toggle and the ability to change my squadmate's armor.


Yes.  This is correct!

Also:

Elevators are a sometimes food BioWare.  They're sweet and delicious, but if we eat them too often we'll get sick.  Maybe in ME3 you can get the amount of elevators just right?  (Think Baby Bear!)


^Agreed. I forgot about that, but feel the same way.

#413
Darth Drago

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Shockwave81 wrote...

Hahah, indeed it does. I'm not a shooter fanboy by any stretch, but at least in GOW you actually spend the majority of the game fighting your true enemies - not hordes of Mercs and Mechs with the main antagonists being kept back for scripted moments.

In ME1 players have the option of fighting the Geth on many occasions, which kept my main foe in full focus, and actually gave weight to the side quests. It didn't feel like I was in two different universes, or like I was wasting time.

I don't think there's a single side quest in ME2 that allows you to see the Collectors' handy work, let alone have an actual battle with them.

*mild spoilers warning in this reply*
-There isn’t one side quest mission, N7 or otherwise that involves the Collectors. Even the main quest ones are not that impressive over all, especially the final battle. Poorly written and planned out. I’m in their home and I’m fighting a handful of generic soldiers per wave? Lets not forget the “lets all go for a shuttle ride” bit. No surprise there as to what would happen next, especially if you had no missions to go on when this happens.

Isn’t it odd as well that Shepard should be searching for more allies to fight the Reapers and he/she is wiping out the biggest ally he could get, those 3 merc groups? They are everywhere, they are very well equipped and probably have their own fleet of ships as well. But oh wait, I forgot they are the only real threat in ME2...

Lets look at some of those N7 high quality missions… taken from my larger posting in my thread about the UNC vs. N7 side quests. http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/1472797/22#2331205

-N7: Endangered Research Station -Turn on the shield and oh that’s it? Yep a very high quality mission. “I’m Commander Shepard and I’m the only one in the freaking galaxy qualified to press a switch?”
-N7: Mining the Canyon -Power up the YMIR mech with conveniently placed power cells for every 20 feet it walked. Oh yea so much fun here.
-N7: MSV Estevanico -Walk around a rusted out wreck to get picked up by the shuttle at the target location. Yet another snooze fest mission which includes brand new containers placed on a rusted out shell.
-N7: Quarian Crash Site - Protect the Quarian for a few seconds on a very short level. Hey lets land in one spot walk no more than 100 fee to find our Quarian, protect him/her for a few minutes and have the shuttle pick us up here. This one kills me every time. EDI can pinpoint a faint life sign of the Quarian surrounded by a lot of wildlife, yet cant pick up the large cluster of humans in Jacobs loyalty mission? Hey at least we get to shoot stuff right?
-N7: Eclipse Smuggling Depot -Aria’s reward quest. Kill the 3 Mechs before they destroy the crates. So much fun with so little point.
-N7: Javelin Missiles Launched - Is part 4 of a series but I add it here because it was still extremely short (only a few rooms) and giving your two final choices concerning the missile, there should have been paragon/renegade points earned. Let me retype this part, “there should have been paragon/renegade points earned“, yet none is awarded. We are at a missile site with absolutely no defense systems to protect it from any hostile threats at all? A bunch of girl scouts armed with cookies could have taken this place out.

Its very interesting that all of those above feature none or very little combat are also very short missions and also on very small levels. They are also the only N7 side quests that have limited or no combat in them. Anyone still doubting that ME2 isn’t aimed at the shooter crowd?

Modifié par Darth Drago, 19 avril 2010 - 07:33 .


#414
SkullandBonesmember

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Blk_Mage_Ctype wrote...

In all honestly, I enjoyed ME2 far more than ME1, and this is coming from a guy who loves RPGs and isn't a big fan of shooters.

The only things from ME1 that I miss are Helmet Toggle and the ability to change my squadmate's armor.


Clarify please. Are you a level grinding, skills, weapons, stats RPG fan or story RPG fan?

#415
Darth Drago

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Brako Shepard wrote...

They say that people don't like change, but I think gamers actually fear it.

The thing with video games like Mass Effect. Is when the gamers truly fall in love with the first game, you can bet there will be a huge wait for the sequal. During this 2-3 year gap, gamers (including myself) let our creative brains work into overdrive on what we hope to see in the sequal.

The thing we gamers forget, is that our creative minds are free of budget and if and when we share our ideas on forums such as this. We are lucky if 5 people like the ideas that you have. We are free from budget, we have 2 years just to imagine what we want. But most importantly, we have 2 years to create our own perfect game from the ideas created by the developers in the first place.


Does Mass Effect 2 have a dull story like has been mentioned in this thread? Fudge no!
Its possibly the best video game story or sci-fi that I have seen for 20 or so years. I would be really happy for the writters at BioWare if they won a Bafta for there skills...but not surprised. Truly amazing writting.

Would I have done things differentley? Yes and No. 99% of the gamers on here are massive RPG only fans. We need hundreds of side missions and minigames to truly make a great game. Why wouldn't I change things? Because Mass Effect 2 is still an amazing game to be in, plus we have no idea on what the devs have for us in Mass Effect 3.

**some minor spoilers in the below reply **

-When the Mission Computer menu between both game has only one option that is different yet the only one in the same spot is the “Squad” one that’s a good change right? The changes in ME2 just get worse from there since they went from one extreme to the other in every case. Oh yea got to love the crap thermal clip idea as well. If this kind of change is what we’ll get for ME3 then you better believe I will fear it and we all should.

You don’t go from one extreme to another to “fix” something that didn’t work as well in the first game (of a trilogy- keep that in mind - a trilogy), drop game elements out right or decide to screw the core fan base of that first game by practically completely changing the genre of the game as well. I guess ME3 will be a first person shooter now or since the Hammerhead had a lot of platformer game elements in it ME3 will be a full platformer game. When you make a trilogy of anything you don’t go out of your way to screw over your fan base that liked the first part of that trilogy.

Yes the story in ME2 bites, on an epic scale in almost every aspect. You spend 80% of your time recruiting people, doing their loyalty missions and collecting obscene amounts of minerals for upgrades.

When you do get the team together you have what is it 2 cases where any of them actually get involved with each other? Oh yea lets not forget the how interchangeable the squad members dialog are on all missions with very few exceptions. There was no interaction with the “odd member out” in any loyalty mission in all but a few cases. The writers should have watched The Dirty Dozen or The Seven Samurai to see how a misfit group gets formed and get through their differences to beat the common enemy, more so in the Dirty Dozen on that I will admit.

The only true threat in the game is the 3 merc groups that you encounter in almost every mission. Since after all no one could have written larger scale encounters or more encounters with the Collectors. Having this Harbinger do his Jedi mind trick go very old very fast and was also very lame with is whole whopping 5 lines it spoke to you. It can control a Collector but not a Keeper (even with its genetic changes) to flip those key switches on the Citadel?

Like I mentioned in my last post, just got to love the epic and so well written "lets all go for a shuttle ride" momnet.

**spoilers warning here**
The so called suicide mission was a major let down and poorly planned as well. Lets see the only way someone will get killed is if I don’t do their loyalty mission, don’t upgrade the ship, or choose the wrong person to lead a group or do a specialist task? Right, sounds super and so well thought out.

I've seen really bad movies on saturday night on the sci-fi channel that were better written.

Oh and who cares what the developers have in store for ME3, it shouldn’t have had that much impact on what was butchered in to make ME2.

#416
hex23

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Darth Drago....no offense but why are you still here? I haven't came to this board in a few weeks, and here you are still talking about how much you hate "ME2", how much it sucks, etc.



You don't like it. We get that. The game is done, released, sold well, and received critical acclaim. It's over, basically. Sitting here writing a ton of paragraphs on why it sucks....I don't understand the motivation behind that.



And for the record I have zero problems with someone disliking the game but you seem a bit obsessed with it, honestly, like you're on a crusade to convince other people not to like it.

#417
-System

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ME2 set the stage for ME3. What, Darth? Did you expect them to spoil it all midway through a trilogy? If you have this big of a problem with the game, write and create your own.

#418
Darth Drago

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hex23 wrote...

Darth Drago....no offense but why are you still here? I haven't came to this board in a few weeks, and here you are still talking about how much you hate "ME2", how much it sucks, etc.

You don't like it. We get that. The game is done, released, sold well, and received critical acclaim. It's over, basically. Sitting here writing a ton of paragraphs on why it sucks....I don't understand the motivation behind that.

And for the record I have zero problems with someone disliking the game but you seem a bit obsessed with it, honestly, like you're on a crusade to convince other people not to like it.

-Why am I here? I was replying to two peoples posts.

Guess I cant even do that without being attacked by you. But I’m sure you will bring up your usual spewage of replies. Oh wait, you already did: “sold well, and received critical acclaim”

And again I have to say that nowhere have I said in any posting that I hate Mass Effect 2.


-System wrote...

ME2 set the stage for ME3. What, Darth? Did you expect them to spoil it all midway through a trilogy? If you have this big of a problem with the game, write and create your own.

-To bad ME1 wasn’t fully used to set the stage for ME2. A good 2nd part of a trilogy story doesn’t leave you back where the first part ended and that is what ME2 does. Were there some interesting revelations? Yes, but nothing really ground breaking beyond the origin of the Collectors. Are we any closer to finding a way to stop the Reapers? Not by a long shot. The way I see things with this series is BioWare is going to fix everything with the pull the rabbit out of the hat trick that will likely make that fateful shuttle ride bit look like the best plot device ever used in history.

-Sorry if my opinions ruffle your “BioWare is the greatest” beliefs. I have little faith after reading how BioWare intends to make ME3 another standalone game that it will likely result in it becoming anything but an average at best game.

Modifié par Darth Drago, 19 avril 2010 - 10:30 .


#419
kraidy1117

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The only good thing about ME was the story, characters and the music. The gameplay was rubbish, it is not a masterpiece.

#420
Frraksurred

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Ah the varied opinions.



ME1 was an excellent game, better the ME2 in many ways. ME2 was also an excellent game, better than ME1 in other ways. I enjoyed ME1 more, but like them both. I'm simply hoping BioWare listens to the complaints and compliments and comes up with a better mixture for ME3.



That is all.

#421
CatatonicMan

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Frraksurred wrote...

Ah the varied opinions.

ME1 was an excellent game, better the ME2 in many ways. ME2 was also an excellent game, better than ME1 in other ways. I enjoyed ME1 more, but like them both. I'm simply hoping BioWare listens to the complaints and compliments and comes up with a better mixture for ME3.

That is all.


They'll probably just scrap anything anyone ever complained about ever and replace it with something completely different, which will turn out to be flawed in its own unique way. God forbid they actually try to repair/renovate the mansion instead of nuking it from orbit.

...but I guess we will see.

#422
Vena_86

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kraidy1117 wrote...

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The only good thing about ME was the story, characters and the music. The gameplay was rubbish, it is not a masterpiece.


And because people like you, that didnt (truly) like and respect the Mass Effect franchise made BioWare change it to your taste the true fans now look like a bunch of nerdy whiners. I guess the oppinion of strangers matters more these days.

#423
kraidy1117

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Vena_86 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Image IPB

The only good thing about ME was the story, characters and the music. The gameplay was rubbish, it is not a masterpiece.


And because people like you, that didnt (truly) like and respect the Mass Effect franchise made BioWare change it to your taste the true fans now look like a bunch of nerdy whiners. I guess the oppinion of strangers matters more these days.



Yes, seeing as I have been a fan of Bioware since Baldurs gate, yes I am a stranger. Face it, people liked ME2 alot more then ME. Before you open your mouth and look like a moron, know who your talking to.

Modifié par kraidy1117, 19 avril 2010 - 11:03 .


#424
2pac Shakur

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ME2 is more of a shooter than an RPG, which makes a lot of fanboys mad. Understandable, as there are many better TPS out there, that focus on entirely being shooters. ME2 gameplay is a much better improvement over ME1, but the story was kinda meh compared to 1

#425
kraidy1117

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2pac Shakur wrote...

ME2 is more of a shooter than an RPG, which makes a lot of fanboys mad. Understandable, as there are many better TPS out there, that focus on entirely being shooters. ME2 gameplay is a much better improvement over ME1, but the story was kinda meh compared to 1


That it is one of my complaints, the story could have been better, but the side stories and the characters made up for it it IMO.