336 réponses à ce sujet

[Lintanis]

wow two jobs you have my sympathy Lady Damodred it is bad enough doing the one sometimes

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

So you are going to refuse the offer huh? As stupid as that might be?

I would refuse the offer as well.
Not only to saveguard Ferelden independence, but to prevent a disaster from befalling the Wardens as they become more political. The most probable outcome of Osric's vision is a Warden civil war as they compete for power and become divided by established boundaries and that would be more catastrophic than what happened during the previous blights. 

Assuming the wardens wouldn't answer to Osric or future First Wardens. Isn't that his suggestion? ( since you write him you probably know better ). Allow the King and Queen of Fereldan to retain rule over Fereldan but with the First Warden higher then them. 

But I digress. The idea of unifying Thedas against the Darkspawn shouldn't be thrown aside that quickly. 

I did not write him. I helped create him, but LadyDamodred is the one who wrote him in most part.
I do not throw his vision aside quickly, I helped create him so that he can be, to me, sympathetic.

But after deliberating on it, I found that his vision is dangerous. Yes, he thinks he will be able to control Warden rulers all accross Thedas. There is a very large chance however that he would fail and even if he personally succeeded, that his successors would fail.

In fact until now, the story is showing the dangers of his ways. What if monarchs like Lya and Aliwtair refuse to submit because they love their country too much. What then?

Blights occur centuries appart from each other. What happens in the interim?
What if Wardens start to seek more and more power and in the process, start competing with each other.
What if Wardens, to justify their rule, start embracing nationalist sentiments. In other words, Wardens in Orlais become Orlesian first and foremost, those in Ferelden become Fereldan first and foremost. That and many other hypotheticals such as these would effectively destroy the Wardens, in their hubris.

Throughout the history of Thedas, the Warden's primary advantage is that they were politicaly neutral and that they do not have to deal with the BS. Involve them politically, and that neutrality is gone. I will not resort to the "power corrupts" cliche, but political power would make the Wardens seek it first and foremost and forget about the rest. As a realist yourself, I am sure you would understand what I mean. Political power is very tempting and distracting.

But again, I do not think his vision is unreasonable or unsympathetic, to me. I disagree with it on pragmatic grounds and not on ethical / moral ones. Others might oppose him on these accounts, of course.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 juin 2010 - 04:11 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Every regime change has carried with it a heavy risk and every creation of a new world order has never been without war, civil unrest and strife.

The Wardens are a dying order because of their political neutrality. If not for them ruling the Anderfels and the support Orlais gives them, then the wardens would have died long ago. Their survival has everything to do them not being neutral in politics.

How long will the efforts of the Fifth Blight be remember when it was so short and only affected one country? How long until the wardens fall down again? A change must happen so the Order can survive. Just as the Knight of the Teutonic Order tried conquering Prussia, Lithuania and Poland to survive so too must the Wardens change their ways.

I am not saying Lya should accept his offer, but she should not dismiss it completely but rather find a compromise with him.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 30 juin 2010 - 04:52 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Wardens fell in Ferelden presicely because they dabbled in politics. And their alliance with Orlais is very minimal politically speaking. The Wardens do not support Orlesian exalted marches, or any of its foreign policy.

And it's funny you mention the Teutonic Order, as they declined precisely after they invaded Prussia, Poland and Lithuania. They were outclassed both militqarily and economically.

The Wardens are not failing everywhere else. Only in Ferelden were they weak, because of their attempted coup. But they are in pretty good shape in the rest of Thedas and they managed to muster a large army to immedietaly counter the fifth Blight with relative ease, had it not been for Loghain not allowing them to come in.

EDIT: and yes I am fully aware that a change in the world order needs to be violent. But that's why I am opposed to any revolutionary change both on a global scale or domestic. Because ideas like this often create more problems than they solve. Which is why mostly every revolution reaches a thermidor and a subsequent rollback. Because they are almost all the time self destructive.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 juin 2010 - 05:00 .

[Costin_Razvan]

And it's funny you mention the Teutonic Order, as they declined precisely after they invaded Prussia, Poland and Lithuania. They were outclassed both militqarily and economically.

Their power before their conquest of Prussia was quite weak, a few holdings in Hungary and Germany. Their invasion of Prussia got them to the position in that they ruled an entire country for almost 300 years and they almost conquered Lithuania and Poland. Their defeat at Grunwald was devastating, 200 from the Order and many more captured, for an order with less then 2.000 that was devastating.



Even so the Teutonic Order was able to continue ruling Prussia for almost 100 years, and when they were defeated they still had their holdings in Germany, which were far more significative then what they had before the conquest of Prussia. Even in their greatest defeated they had great power....until Napoleon destroyed the Order.

The Wardens are not failing everywhere else. Only in Ferelden were they weak, because of their attempted coup. But they are in pretty good shape in the rest of Thedas and they managed to muster a large army to immedietaly counter the fifth Blight with relative ease, had it not been for Loghain not allowing them to come in.

The Army they mustered was an Orlesian one, and it was more on Celene's ambition to try and conquer Fereldan then it was for the benefit of the Wardens.

EDIT: and yes I am fully aware that a change in the world order needs to be violent. But that's why I am opposed to any revolutionary change both on a global scale or domestic. Because ideas like this often create more problems than they solve. Which is why mostly every revolution reaches a thermidor and a subsequent rollback. Because they are almost all the time self destructive.

It is the only way however. The formation of the Macedeon as a leading power in Greece, the formation of the Roman Republic and later the Roman Empire, the Mongol Empire etc. etc. even the USA were all formed that way: through a lot of bloodshed.



I disagree in that they were self destructive. Certainly all those I mentioned did fall in time ( save for the USA, but even they will eventually fall ) but that doesn't mean they didn't achieve a great deal, cause they certainly did.

[LadyDamodred]

*is most pleased with all the discussion*

There are a lot of factors involved here.  It's not simple and cut and dry as to what's good/bad.  There is also no totally right and totally wrong answer.

We shall have to see how this plays out, hm?

@Lintanis:  And now it's summer vacation and I am free~!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
The Army they mustered was an Orlesian one, and it was more on Celene's ambition to try and conquer Fereldan then it was for the benefit of the Wardens.

Irrelevent. The fact remains the Wardens would have been able to counter the blight immediately. Orlesian ambitions are irrelevent to them.
Comapred to the last blights, Orlesian assistance was earned quickly and that's what they ought to care aobut, not ulterior motives.

Nothing in the established lore indicates the Wardens are in a weak state, except in Ferelden because of what they did. And the extinction of griffons perhaps.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
It is the only way however. The formation of the Macedeon as a leading power in Greece, the formation of the Roman Republic and later the Roman Empire, the Mongol Empire etc. etc. even the USA were all formed that way: through a lot of bloodshed.

I disagree in that they were self destructive. Certainly all those I mentioned did fall in time ( save for the USA, but even they will eventually fall ) but that doesn't mean they didn't achieve a great deal, cause they certainly did.

These are not formation of new world orders or anything revolutionary at all. These are pretty standart events. A superpower always rises and then falls. Standart and nothing revolutionary about it. In addition, none of these powers had to worry about combatting a threat that threatens all of humanity's existence.

What Osric is doing on the otherhand is a compeltely different matter. He is trying to rule over Thedas with an order of a few thousand men and then expects them to remain loyal to him and to control them all. Even if he succeeds, there is no way his successors would be able to, for the reasons I mentioned above.

And if the Warden order collapses in and on itself, as is the most probable outcome, and then a blight shows up, everyone is doomed. Because the wardens thought they could control Thedas and remain united. I would rather not risk this.
 

As for the Teutonics. By the 15th century, they mostly lost their power, because they thought they could fight other kingdoms. But the analogy is weak. The Teutonics sought to find a purpose for their order which had none. The Wardens have a clear purpose. They don't need to find another one. Not until the blights end at the very least.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 juin 2010 - 05:44 .

[Costin_Razvan]

There are a lot of factors involved here. It's not simple and cut and dry as to what's good/bad. There is also no totally right and totally wrong answer.

Nothing involving politics is like that.

 Comapred to the last blights, Orlesian assistance was earned quickly and that's what they ought to care aobut, not ulterior motives.

And when the Orlesians have no ulterior motive for supporting the wardens? What then? The Orlesian support for the Wardens in the fifth Blight was an exception, not a rule.

 Nothing in the established lore indicates the Wardens are in a weak state, except in Ferelden because of what they did. And the extinction of griffons perhaps.  

With Blights getting weaker and weaker, and getting crushed faster, what do you think will honestly happen with the Order? Their power comes from defeating Darkspawn in Blights, but when Blights become a minor threat to the world, ( as was the Fifth Blight which was stopped by a country having enduring a civil war+ Orzammar and some Elven Clans ) what do you think will be the outcome?

 What Osric is doing on the otherhand is a compeltely different matter. He is trying to rule over Thedas with an order of a few thousand men and then expects them to remain loyal to him and to control them all. Even if he succeeds, there is no way his successors would be able to, for the reasons I mentioned above.

And yet the Wardens have been able to rule the Anderfels quite well and without a problem using this method. Besides, for all intents an purposes Fereldan is ruled by wardens right now and their children will likely rule once they are dead.

For the rest of Thedas it might be an issue....but I get the feeling Osric already has Celene in his pocket ( might just be me though ).

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 30 juin 2010 - 05:55 .

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Nothing in the established lore indicates the Wardens are in a weak state, except in Ferelden because of what they did. And the extinction of griffons perhaps.

Riordan sort of hints at it, when you talk to him at Arl Eamon's estate.  it could be my interpretation, but the Anderfels and Orlais certainly seem to be where the base of Warden power is located.  His "a few more in other nations" says to me that they're not very strong outside of those two main areas.

@Costin:  Yeah, nothing involving politics is like that.  It would have been easier to just play good guy/bad guy with the characters, a lot of fic does, but I want the lines to be blurry.  I mean, I'm sure you can tell where my sympathies lie, but I want people to, if not sympathize, at least understand Osric's motivations.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 30 juin 2010 - 05:48 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Nothing in the established lore indicates the Wardens are in a weak state, except in Ferelden because of what they did. And the extinction of griffons perhaps.

Riordan sort of hints at it, when you talk to him at Arl Eamon's estate.  it could be my interpretation, but the Anderfels and Orlais certainly seem to be where the base of Warden power is located.  His "a few more in other nations" says to me that they're not very strong outside of those two main areas.

From what I know, this has always been the case, during all Blights. Orlais has always been the main ally of the Wardens, then comes Tevinter. The other nations have mostly always been devastated.

Of course them trying to gain as much influence as possible in all nations is the best way to go, to avoid such devastation. But them to try and rule over them? That will create more problems than it will solve.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 juin 2010 - 05:52 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I mean, I'm sure you can tell where my sympathies lie, but I want people to, if not sympathize, at least understand Osric's motivations.

Yes well....apparently people want Osric's head already ( based on reviews you get on FF.net ). Yes I know what will be the outcome of this story: Osric dead.

The question is however: Will that not destroy the order? A warden Civil War would be devastating. That's the flip side of the argument. Osric wouldn't just accept a no from Lya, and the outcome of that will be very devastating for the Order, maybe just as devastating as Knight says that following the deal will be.

You can't just assume that the Wardens will just flock to Lya's side. Osric did not become First Warden by accident, and he will have many followers.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 30 juin 2010 - 06:02 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

And when the Orlesians have no ulterior motive for supporting the wardens? What then? The Orlesian support for the Wardens in the fifth Blight was an exception, not a rule.

The Orlesians have always been there to support the Wardens.
And because the Wardens were politically neutral, they managed to make Orlais and Tevinter, the two greatest foes, into allies on several occasions. Had they been Orlesian stooges, that would not have been possible. And it would not have been possible for them to rule both nations and not be divided as a reslt.

Costin_Razvan wrote...

 Nothing in the established lore indicates the Wardens are in a weak state, except in Ferelden because of what they did. And the extinction of griffons perhaps.  

With Blights getting weaker and weaker, and getting crushed faster, what do you think will honestly happen with the Order? Their power comes from defeating Darkspawn in Blights, but when Blights become a minor threat to the world, ( as was the Fifth Blight which was stopped by a country having enduring a civil war+ Orzammar and some Elven Clans ) what do you think will be the outcome?.

After the last 2 blights, the Order doesn't need to exist anymore or be as strong, so I don' really care what will happen with them.
And their victory in Ferelden showed precisely why they are needed, hence why their power in Ferelden increased. They earned an Arling.

Costin_Razvan wrote...

 What Osric is doing on the otherhand is a compeltely different matter. He is trying to rule over Thedas with an order of a few thousand men and then expects them to remain loyal to him and to control them all. Even if he succeeds, there is no way his successors would be able to, for the reasons I mentioned above.

And yet the Wardens have been able to rule the Anderfels quite well and without a problem using this method. Besides, for all intents an purposes Fereldan is ruled by wardens right now and their children will likely rule once they are dead.

They are ruling one, very poor, nation with a weak king. That is entirely different than trying to rule over Orlais, Tevinter, Ferelden, Nevarra, Antiva and the others at the same time.

And as the story shows, Lya and Alsitair are not going to take orders, so Ferelden is not ruld by Wardens. They are ruled by Monarchs who consider themselves Fereldan first and foremost, who happen to be Wardens.

Costin_Razvan wrote...

but I get the feeling Osric already has Celene in his pocket ( might just be me though ).

Yea, that's what he thinks.

He's wrong


Again, I am nto saying Osric is wrong. In fact, he ought to strengthen Warden presence in other nations. But he is taking it way too far imo.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 juin 2010 - 06:06 .

[Costin_Razvan]

The Orlesians have always been there to support the Wardens.

And because the Wardens were politically neutral, they managed to make Orlais and Tevinter, the two greatest foes, into allies on several occasions. Had they been Orlesian stooges, that would not have been possible. And it would not have been possible for them to rule both nations and not be divided as a reslt.

The Orlesians never did support the Wardens wholeheartedly. They only fought with all their might ONLY once the Darkspawn proved a serious threat to Orlais itself, and even so they had ulterior motives.

Yea, that's what he thinks.



He's wrong

We will see....It's in LadyD's hands anyway.

After the last 2 blights, the Order doesn't need to exist anymore or be as strong, so I don' really care what will happen with them.

How far away are these 2 Blights going to be? From the Fourth to the Fifth it took about 400 years. Can you guarantee the wardens will survive for that long?



The danger with the crushing defeat in the Fifth Blight is that people will start sooner to realize that Warden's aren't that needed.

Again, I am nto saying Osric is wrong. In fact, he ought to strengthen Warden presence in other nations. But he is taking it way too far imo.

Perhaps so, perhaps not.

[LadyDamodred]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I mean, I'm sure you can tell where my sympathies lie, but I want people to, if not sympathize, at least understand Osric's motivations.

Yes well....apparently people want Osric's head already ( based on reviews you get on FF.net ). Yes I know what will be the outcome of this story: Osric dead.

The question is however: Will that not destroy the order? A warden Civil War would be devastating. That's the flip side of the argument. Osric wouldn't just accept a no from Lya, and the outcome of that will be very devastating for the Order, maybe just as devastating as Knight says that following the deal will be.

You can't just assume that the Wardens will just flock to Lya's side. Osric did not become First Warden by accident, and he will have many followers.

Yes, some of the reviews make me scratch my head.  Ah well.

And, no, you cannot assume the Wardens will just flock to Lya's side.  It would be foolish to do so.  Osric is, after all the First Warden.  He sort of makes the rules.  One would have to expect that all Wardens would follow his commands first and foremost.

Edit:  Btw?  Squeeing over here at debate.  I like. 

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 30 juin 2010 - 06:23 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
The Orlesians never did support the Wardens wholeheartedly. They only fought with all their might ONLY once the Darkspawn proved a serious threat to Orlais itself, and even so they had ulterior motives.

The blights will always be a threat to Orlais itself (just like all blights threatened Orlais in the past), thus their support will always be there. Even if they need a bit of convincing.

Costin_Razvan wrote...

How far away are these 2 Blights going to be? From the Fourth to the Fifth it took about 400 years. Can you guarantee the wardens will survive for that long?

The danger with the crushing defeat in the Fifth Blight is that people will start sooner to realize that Warden's aren't that needed.

Nothing is guaranteed. But the Wardens survived  elsewhere in Thedas for those 400 years. Only in Ferelden were they weak and mostly forgotten. 

And I see it as the contrary. The Warden victory in Ferelden made them much more powerful. For the first time, an Arling is given for them to command. If they play it right, I can see them surviving for centuries with little problems.
If anything, the 5th blight reinforces the idea that Wardens are necessary.

But can you guarantee that the Wardens won't start fighting each other over power as they try to rule over Thedas?
Can you guarantee that they won't be divided along national lines, as they try to justify why they are ruling over distinct nations?

I can't guarantee that the contrary will happen either. But I see it as a very probable outcome and an unnecessary risk.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 juin 2010 - 06:26 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
Edit:  Btw?  Squeeing over here at debate.  I like. 

Yep, you are that good

[Costin_Razvan]

Edit: Btw? Squeeing over here at debate. I like.

Someone who likes to see me and Knight argue...now that has me scratching my head.

But can you guarantee that the Wardens won't start fighting each other over power as they try to rule over Thedas?
Can you guarantee that they won't be divided along national lines, as they try to justify why they are ruling over distinct nations?

I can't guarantee that the contrary will happen either. But I see it as a very probable outcome and an unnecessary risk.

I think you are reading too much into the whole national lines things. I see the the Wardens as a multinational and cultural group. Every country with Wardens has them drawn for many countries. I doubt there is a majority of Orlesians in the Order of Orlais for example.

Secondly. The Wardens are not politicians, while some of them are nobles most are common folk. Power corrupts all, that is true, but I do not think any Warden Commander would be keen to turn on his fellow brothers and sisters just for the sake of power. The most important part is that every Warden is a warrior who fights, and there is a sense of bonding between fellow warriors there.

Take for example the Teutonic, Templar and Hospitaller Orders, rarely do we see infighting between the various higher ups of those orders.

I do not disagree that it COULD happen, but I do not believe the risk to be that great.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 30 juin 2010 - 06:54 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Edit: Btw? Squeeing over here at debate. I like.

Someone who likes to see me and Knight argue...now that has me scratching my head.

Seeing how we are usually on the same side, I would think it's a bit refreshing for others

Secondly. The Wardens are not politicians, while some of them are nobles most are common folk. Power corrupts all, that is true, but I do not think any Warden Commander would be keen to turn on his fellow brothers and sisters just for the sake of power.

Aah, but that's precisely because they are politically neutral (not entirely apolitical however). Osric's plan will make them into politicians, it's almost inevitable and axiomatic. You can't have power and not act like a politician in order to maintain it (and offensive realists would argue that the best way to maintain power is to keep gaining more).
 
At least that is what I fear, hence why I object to his vision.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 juin 2010 - 07:00 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Aah, but that's precisely because they are politically neutral (not entirely apolitical however). Osric's plan will make them into politicians, it's lamost inevitable and axiomatic. You can't have power and not act like a politician in order to maintain it.



At least that is what I fear, hence why I object to his vision.

The only ones who might, and I stress the might in the sentence, become politicians are the Warden Commanders and perhaps the Senior Wardens, but the others would remain as they are as nothing really changes for them.



Regarding the Warden Commanders. I view the whole deal Osric is making involving Lya and Alistair answering to him, not to the Warden Commander of Fereldan. In fact the King and Queen would most likely have more authority then the Warden Commander of said country.



But that's just me. I could be very wrong.

Seeing how we are usually on the same side, I would think it's a bit refreshing for others

The juggernauts face of against each other. "Chuckle." It is inevitable.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The others are going to follow the orders of their respective commanders most likely. Or perhaps become ambitious themselves, which is also very likely.

And the way I understand Osric, he's planing to make every Warden Commander rule the nation he is in. Ferelden is a bit of an exception, as they have Warden monarchs and a commander in Amaranthine. But the Warden Commander answers to the First Warden by default. The deal is to make them rule over nations and answer to the First Warden at the same time.

Anyways, I gtg. It's been a pleasure as always Costin

[Costin_Razvan]

In the end it will come down to what LadyD does with the story. At this point we are both speculating on what Osric means with that deal.

Anyways, I gtg. It's been a pleasure as always Costin

Cya. Was a pleasure as well.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 30 juin 2010 - 07:12 .

[LadyDamodred]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Regarding the Warden Commanders. I view the whole deal Osric is making involving Lya and Alistair answering to him, not to the Warden Commander of Fereldan. In fact the King and Queen would most likely have more authority then the Warden Commander of said country.

But that's just me. I could be very wrong.

I don't even know if this counts as spoilars.  :x

That would be the point.  He would not want another link in the chain of command seperating the monarchs of a country from the First Warden providing the monarchs are compliant with his commands.  If not, then you would want the Warden-Commander of that country pulling strings from the background.  I would say more, but then I really would be getting into spoilars.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 30 juin 2010 - 07:25 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Why do I get the feeling that you are going to make Deldano the main villain of this story rather then Osric? Perhaps I am reading too much into Nathaniel's words that Deldano is playing his own game.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 30 juin 2010 - 07:23 .

[Miri1984]

To be honest I think what Osric is doing is extremely dangerous. The wardens are actually more effective as a small, neutral fighting force in each country rather than a powerful ruling force. They are a secret society in all senses of the word - much more so than the Hospitaliers or the Teutonic knights who were really just rich, powerful orders of fighters who took too much onto themselves. THEY were crushed because people became paranoid about how much power they had - and how much money, and because they were international. Like the wardens.



Wardens should keep a low profile. As low as they can without being shunted to the side. As soon as they start interfering in politics they risk the Ferelden problem, which could potentially stop them from fighting blights effectively. That's why the right of conscription is rarely used, why they give up all titles and names - the wardens RECOGNISE that they have power and do everything they can to make sure the countries that they're in don't think they have too much.

[Costin_Razvan]

They are a secret society in all senses of the word - much more so than the Hospitaliers or the Teutonic knights who were really just rich, powerful orders of fighters who took too much onto themselves. THEY were crushed because people became paranoid about how much power they had - and how much money, and because they were international. Like the wardens.

You mistake the Teutonic and Hospitaller orders for the Templar Knights. The Templars are the only ones who got crushed because of paranoia and their power, the Teutonic and Hospitaller did not fall because of that. Certainly the Teutonic Knights suffered a heavy blow at Grunwald and lost Prussia in 100 years after that ( the fact they held it for that long considering their crushing defeat is testament to their prowess ), but even after they lost it they still remained in a strong position in Germany.



The Knights Hospitaller did even better then their Teutonic counterparts. They held Malta for almost 300 years, fighting off against Turks constantly.



Both the Teutonic Knights and Hospitaller Knights had their military force disbanded by Napoleon and their holdings confiscated. This had nothing to do with paranoia had against them, but rather that Napoleon did not want to keep a potential enemy behind his front lines.



Take note however that both the Teutonic and Hospitaller orders still exist today, while the Templars ( the shadowy order who tried to stay neutral and simply manage businesses ) don't.