21 réponses à ce sujet

[Noxxxious]

The appropriate title should be "Is it realistic to play Vanguard as a paragon," but I had to write something that would draw ya in .

It's obviously doable, but my point is that since the kind of combat vanguards engage is preeminently brutal, intense, short and visceral, a vanguard is kind of predisposed to Renegade choices and lifestyles. Think of it this way, death is always a very real possibility because of a high risk, high reward fighting style (it's either them or me, right now.) Thus, an aggressive, impulsive, callous personality is well suited to fighting as a vanguard, and this would correlate with a Renegade rather than Paragon style. Again, this is not to say that Paragons can't be vanguards ( in the ME universe) but just that after having completed my 3rd insanity play through on 360, it just doesn't intuitively seem genuine to be anything but a Renegade Vanguard.

[ehcaba]

So shooting people with a high powered rifle is less violent? I think the target would disagree. Read the description of Warp. I believe it talks about tearing someone apart at a cellular level. That's really vicious.



Think of their style like a smite evil/good if you like.

[Kurupt87]

Yes I agree, VG is most closely related to berserker class from DnD imo.

I have played a para VG though, justifyng to myself that I was of the foaming-at-the-mouth paladin type. It's hard though, because you don't get many paragon options that follow this line, and some renegade options would fit quite nicely into a fanatical paladins outlook.

I suppose I am completely aggreing with you, a true paragon as the ME games see it does not fit with being a VG.

[Omega-202]

I don't see it that way at all.



I agree with ehcaba that a mindless gun jock Soldier, a cold calculating sniping Infiltrator or a sadistic, molecular warping Sentinel or Adept would be more "evil" than a guy who charges around and ends people with a shotgun.



I'd almost see it as mercy that a Vanguard would end my life with a swift shotgun blast than to have to suffer the agony of burning to death from an incinerate or to be twisted from the inside out by a warp.



If you wanted to play a "pure" Paragon character, the BEST choice would have to be a Vanguard. Take down all enemies with melee attacks only, rationalizing it as "just knocking them out". A Vanguard is the most effective melee combatant out there. And if the game can be played without firing a single shot as some have demonstrated, its possible it can be done with all kill-shots being done by a melee attack.

[Kurupt87]

I see the vanguard as a beserker, I can easily imagine shep hitting himself in the face a couple of times before beginning to roar and charge around the battlefield like a possesed hurricane of vengeance, all the while roaring. That's just the way I see the vanguard, I don't see sane or calm people charging headfirst at enemies to blast the crap out of them with a shotgun. There's no self preservation involved in the vanguard style, and normal people look after themselves.

edit: i should also add that i see beserkers as being the very essence of renegade, do something to further your cause no matter the cost.

Modifié par Kurupt87, 24 mars 2010 - 05:15 .

[gauntz]

Yeah, because charging up to someone and blasting a shotgun to their face is less brutal than burning them alive with Incinerate or making lamb chops of them with Warp. Idiot.

[Kronner]

My Vanguard is a goody goody brute lol

[Noxxxious]

To clarify a few points:
1.) I'm not talking about the other classes. The scope of the point i'm making concerns vanguards and not infiltrators adepts or what have you. I'm saying by design playing as vanguard seems to correlate with Renegade decisions/lifestyle

2.) @ehcaba & Omega- There is a distinction between violence and brutality, as there is a difference between brutality and cruelty. Pointing out that warp tears molecules apart or incinerate sears flesh only indicates acts of cruelty which, obviously, are in line with Renegade actions. Again i'm NOT saying the OTHER classes are not just as cruel or brutal etc. as vanguard. I'm saying there is less latitude in judging the way Vanguards play than the classes you mention. Yes the other classes can be crueler in their actions but their styles also allow for fighting that is more benign. I'm saying it's hard to see vanguards as paragons as the fighting style is nothing other than brutish, and brute usually = renegade.

3.) @ gauntz- i fail to see how suggesting an opinion really addresses anything at all. By who's account is getting shotgunned in the face less brutal than incineration or warp? By yours? Good for you. Remember there's a difference between cruelty and brutality. One can entail they other, but they're not the same thing. Please know what you're talking about before slinging your judgments around with petty insults.

Modifié par Noxxxious, 24 mars 2010 - 06:35 .

[Noxxxious]

Kronner, your vanguard is a beastly goody goody brute lool

[BlackFlameGhost]

Paragade Vanguard...



I wont hurt you until you ****** me off... then I'll shoot a molten hot inferno round in your face.



Swallow

[Kurupt87]

gauntz wrote...

Yeah, because charging up to someone and blasting a shotgun to their face is less brutal than burning them alive with Incinerate or making lamb chops of them with Warp. Idiot.

Nice, personal insults. Always the mark of an enlightened conversation.

You are aware that witnessing close-up the destruction you wreak is much harder to do so than from afar? This is why snipers often have trouble dealing with what they have done, he sees through his scope the expressions on the face of the man he is about to kill, whereas your average grunt is more acceptable of the situation in which he finds himself because all he sees are blobs above his sight. Soldiers suffer from pschological trauma due to killing people, but it is generally more than a sniper will kill to feel the same way, either that or the soldier already has a disposition to empathise with his opponent, making him more susceptible to mental trauma. Very few people are capable of being a sniper, skill notwithstanding, and this is the closest I can get to a vanguard from a real life example off the top of my head.

The more personal a kill is, especially with multiple killings, the more you have to believe in your cause above all else (fanatical paladin - doing right no matter the cost) or be a beserker (not caring what happens while in the rage, dealing with the aftermath only - leading to an uncaring attitude because otherwise your own mind would rebel against what you have done).

It's not the way in which the enemy is killed that is important, unless you are consciously looking to cause the most suffering before death, in which case you're a pschopath. Warp is just the tool that biotics are taught to use to kill their enemy. You can play a caster much easier as evil/good because it is easier to either feel sorry for the enemy or enjoy their suffering because they are far away. The enemy is impersonal and far away, justified by the mind as not being human, rather an obstacle.

The film "The Box" demonstrates this part of human psyche, they are given the option of a wish, but to get the wish someone they do not know will die. The characters know it is wrong, and do not believe in it, but are still willing to go through with it. If it had been someone they knew, it is much less likely they'd risk it.

[Omega-202]

gauntz wrote...

Yeah, because charging up to someone and blasting a shotgun to their face is less brutal than burning them alive with Incinerate or making lamb chops of them with Warp. Idiot.

Its much less sadistic.  A life ended instantaneously feels no suffering.  A life ended by burning or the nanoscopic analogue of "drawing and quartering" likely causes incredible pain.  

A jaded zealot brutality kills brutally with little remorse, but he can still be mentally sound and empathetic.  A man who chooses tools that maximize pain and suffering is a cruel psychotic and obviously has no remorse over what he does.  

A classically hailed mark of a civilized society is the method by which it executes its criminals if it does so.  There's a reason that the United States moved from hanging to firing squad to electrocution to lethal injection.  If killing is necessary, a paragon would prefer to do it quicker and more humanely than allow his targets to suffer.  

[Kurupt87]

Meh, it is possible to be a paragon beserker. They tend to recognise that what they do/how they fight is wrong, and are commanly afraid of that side of themselves. Someone like Sheperd howver, would recognise this bad side of himself, but because he has a mission that needs doing, for the good of all, he'd be much more comfortable using the beserker rage to accomplish it.

[gkillerrin]

Noxxxious wrote...

To clarify a few points:
1.) I'm not talking about the other classes. The scope of the point i'm making concerns vanguards and not infiltrators adepts or what have you. I'm saying by design playing as vanguard seems to correlate with Renegade decisions/lifestyle

2.) @ehcaba & Omega- There is a distinction between violence and brutality, as there is a difference between brutality and cruelty. Pointing out that warp tears molecules apart or incinerate sears flesh only indicates acts of cruelty which, obviously, are in line with Renegade actions. Again i'm NOT saying the OTHER classes are not just as cruel or brutal etc. as vanguard. I'm saying there is less latitude in judging the way Vanguards play than the classes you mention. Yes the other classes can be crueler in their actions but their styles also allow for fighting that is more benign. I'm saying it's hard to see vanguards as paragons as the fighting style is nothing other than brutish, and brute usually = renegade.

3.) @ gauntz- i fail to see how suggesting an opinion really addresses anything at all. By who's account is getting shotgunned in the face less brutal than incineration or warp? By yours? Good for you. Remember there's a difference between cruelty and brutality. One can entail they other, but they're not the same thing. Please know what you're talking about before slinging your judgments around with petty insults.

To be fair, the Paragon/Renegard options aren't Burn down an orphanage with enemys in it, and go inside and save the kids, they are just more like how he reacts in a social setting, I know plenty of people IRL that are goodytoshoes in a social setting, but if you do anything to harm them they are a powerfull enemy.

Thats the way a Paragon Vangard Shepard works, He's Great, Fun, and Helpfull in a social setting, but when you try to kill him he will not hesitate to shoot you in the face with a shotgun, He see's more of the rewards in letting people have second chances, but if they shoot at him repedidly he wont hesitate to kill you

he knows that the rewards of letting them live (if possible) are greater than risking to kill him since he knows that he will need everyone for when the Reapers attack

Modifié par gkillerrin, 24 mars 2010 - 08:44 .

[Sabresandiego]

I don't see anything wrong with being a paragon Vanguard. I love being the good guy, and I love maximum action. I do make renegade choices as well, but my renegade bar is about 10% full whereas my paragon bar is 100%.

[Peer of the Empire]

Modifié par Peer of the Empire, 24 mars 2010 - 09:04 .

[gkillerrin]

Sabresandiego wrote...

I don't see anything wrong with being a paragon Vanguard. I love being the good guy, and I love maximum action. I do make renegade choices as well, but my renegade bar is about 10% full whereas my paragon bar is 100%.

same but thats because its more logical to do that because of all of the reasons I listed 3 posts up

Modifié par gkillerrin, 24 mars 2010 - 09:04 .

[OneBadAssMother]

I'm currently having far more people screaming in pain and agony as an Adept on insanity. Sometimes the game glitches and the screaming continues over and over again lol. Add that to the fact I got dominate as a bonus talent...



Far more "renegade"

[DaVanguard]

this might sound off topic but would an interupt that allows you to charge and kill Udina/turian counciler be renegade or paragon (im just hoping for this in ME3)

[IccaRa]

It depends on what motivates your Shepard to have such a fighting style in the first place.



My MainShep is and always will be a Vanguard. She's Paragade and thus leans Paragon most of the time (hit 100% before ME2 was over -- import bonuses and the like.) She fights the way she does because she likes being the target. She is the person who draws fire, who gets in the thick of things to shield and aid her team mates. She is compassionate, but fierce. If a merc is aiming at one of her comrades or an innocent she will feel little remorse in charging across the battlefield to cave his face in. She is efficient. When she kills, she wants to know the enemy is dead. Just because she is a compassionate and otherwise thoughtful person doesn't mean she shouldn't face the ugliness that is battle. She owns up to the truth and to every kill she makes. She's a soldier. She was a colonist. She was the Blitz. None of this is new to her, and she will happily bear that fact so that others may be shielded from living it themselves.



As a character -- as Shepard -- she recognizes that the hands she uses to kill are the same hands she uses to console another, and she's fine with that. Sometimes you have to re-learn how to be gentle with those hands but the passion and the drive is still there, whether in battle or out of it.



So as far as she goes, no, Vanguard is not the equivalent of a mindless berserker or any of that. It's just an extension of her protective efficiency, her hot-blooded compassion and desire to own up to her actions and the ugliness of what she does. It's about getting in the thick of things for others, being true to yourself, not letting your enemies walk over you. It's instilling respect and fear into those enemies because charm and a smile should not be confused with pacification or weakness.



Essentially I see the Vanguard as a raw demonstration of the self. Raw, not mindless or bloodthirsty.



So I can't say I've ever had an issue with my Shepard's alignment and her combat style. She's a boxer anyway, CQB has always interested her. Fortunately Thane is around to nurture that side of her -- Garrus was too much of a pansy to take her up on a spar. Harrumph.



TL;DR: it depends on the Shepard.

[phordicus]

you've got an artificial link between melee and berserkers.

[CarpeOmnios]

I've always played Vanguard because to me it's more of a logical turn to play a biotic FemShep and use biotics to make up for physical strength.



To me, Shepard in social situations and on the battlefield is different. In a conversation, the other person isn't trying to kill you.



Do love the sniper rifle though. I like killing far off enemies with clean headshots rather than spraying them with bullets.