160 réponses à ce sujet

[TheComfyCat]

Paromlin wrote...

davidk1991 wrote...
  Very glad to see Bioware haven't given in to the bigots.

Hmm...

Anyway, I don't think promoting stereotypes - such as gays being flamboyant (Zevran) or outright feminine (Wade and Herren) - is the way to go. Things would be different if their games had some masculine gay/bi characters, as well. Have they included such a character, ever?

LOL @ Zevran being flamboyant. Have you ever even talked to him? Sure, he sometimes makes dirty jokes to deflect questions or tease someone, but that's hardly flamboyant of him. Is he not masculine enough because he's an elf? I don't get it.

Modifié par senorfuzzylips, 26 mars 2010 - 10:17 .

[Paromlin]

senorfuzzylips wrote...

LOL @ Zevran being flamboyant. Have you ever even talked to him? Sure, he sometimes makes dirty jokes to deflect questions or tease someone, but that's hardly flamboyant of him. Is he not masculine enough because he's an elf? I don't get it.

I see you don't get it. Have you ever even played this game?
I mean.. his fixation with boots, gloves, leather. His long blonde hair and delicate face. He *is* extravagant and showy and hardly someone I'd describe as masculine. I'd suggest you take a look at his concept art.
LOL back @ you.

[SurrealSadi]

Paromlin wrote...

senorfuzzylips wrote...

LOL @ Zevran being flamboyant. Have you ever even talked to him? Sure, he sometimes makes dirty jokes to deflect questions or tease someone, but that's hardly flamboyant of him. Is he not masculine enough because he's an elf? I don't get it.

I see you don't get it. Have you ever even played this game?
I mean.. his fixation with boots, gloves, leather. His long blonde hair and delicate face. He *is* extravagant and showy and hardly someone I'd describe as masculine. I'd suggest you take a look at his concept art.
LOL back @ you.

That's the concept art. The character is Bi, not Gay. Yes, he teases, yes he flirts, yes he likes leather. So do a lot of guys I know, and they're neither flamboyant nor bi/gay. I advise you to avoid stereotypes, lest you insult too many people.

[Paromlin]

SurrealSadi wrote...

That's the concept art. The character is Bi, not Gay. Yes, he teases, yes he flirts, yes he likes leather. So do a lot of guys I know, and they're neither flamboyant nor bi/gay. I advise you to avoid stereotypes, lest you insult too many people.

Alright, sorry if I missed a "/" to add bi after gay so you don't get insulted. *roll eyes*
Anyway, thanks for pointing out a VERY IMPORTANT detail for that sentence. We all know Bioware doesn't make gay characters anyway.


Concept (art) serves a purpose, don't you think?

So what stereotype am I advocating here exactly?
Insulting "too many people" by commenting a video game character? LULZ 

I believe you're very confused.

Modifié par Paromlin, 26 mars 2010 - 12:50 .

[TheComfyCat]

Paromlin wrote...

I see you don't get it. Have you ever even played this game?
I mean.. his fixation with boots, gloves, leather. His long blonde hair and delicate face. He *is* extravagant and showy and hardly someone I'd describe as masculine. I'd suggest you take a look at his concept art.
LOL back @ you.

Well, I'm confused over what usage of the word flamboyant you're talking about, since you could mean that he's cocky and roguish and all that, or you could mean that he's a queen (that latter is what I thought you meant originally).

Whether or not he's masculine because of his hygiene habits and taste in armor leather fixation... well, apparently that's subjective. You're judging his masculinity on superficial qualities. I find Alistair to be far less masculine than Zevran upon closer inspection.

I've seen his concept art; it's awful. I don't see how it's ultimately relevant to his character, though. It's not like David Gaider drew it, and the concept obviously didn't fit the character since he looks nothing like that in-game.

I don't see how Zev is a stock character, so I don't understand how including him is perpetuating any stereotypes.

Modifié par senorfuzzylips, 26 mars 2010 - 01:32 .

[Goth Skunk]

senorfuzzylips wrote...

 I find Alistair to be far less masculine than Zevran upon closer inspection.

QFFT

[Ardonia]

i dont care what zev is as long he keeps saying the hilarious things he says

[Paromlin]

senorfuzzylips wrote...

Well, I'm confused over what usage of the word flamboyant you're talking about, since you could mean that he's cocky and roguish and all that, or you could mean that he's a queen (that latter is what I thought you meant originally).

Whether or not he's masculine because of his hygiene habits and taste in armor leather fixation... well, apparently that's subjective. You're judging his masculinity on superficial qualities. I find Alistair to be far less masculine than Zevran upon closer inspection.

I've seen his concept art; it's awful. I don't see how it's ultimately relevant to his character, though. It's not like David Gaider drew it, and the concept obviously didn't fit the character since he looks nothing like that in-game.

I don't see how Zev is a stock character, so I don't understand how including him is perpetuating any stereotypes.

The standard usage. Flamboyant as extravagant and showy, even queen-ish if you wish.

Sure, we can relativize everything and claim that everything is subjective. Then you can start claiming that drag-queens are masculine because dressing is something superficial... But that's silly.
There are certain personality traits that are considered to be feminine or masculine and that's how things work. You may not agree and that's your prerogative, but saying it's completely subjective and that what someone likes is a superficial thing is stretching things too far.

Concept art is relevant to his character. I'm not in the gaming industry, but I believe the designers and artists talk; as in giving some hints about the character's demeanor. Apparently, Zevran was explained in a way that earned him a lot of flashy colours and a queer outfit. That said, I like his concept art.

Zevran doesn't need to be a stock character. He's one of the [not so masculine] gay/bisexual characters in a game made by a company which hasn't had a single butch gay or bi character in their games ever.

You know what.. you people are free to consider Zevran the epitome of masculinity, whatevah, but don't lecture others who don't and are considerate enough to explain why they think so. K?

[lady winde]

Zevran doesn't need to be a stock character. He's one of the [not so masculine] gay/bisexual characters in a game made by a company which hasn't had a single butch gay or bi character in their games ever.

Ever, huh?



Skye and Silk Fox from Jade Empire - both of these chars are bi.

Juhani from KoTOR liked the ladies.



Skye hardly came off as flamboyant.



Anyways none of these characters had a huge "HAY GUYS I PLAY BOTH FIELDS/FOR THE OTHER TEAM" sign above their heads while you played. Zevran just so happened to put it up front. I hardly see him as the type to care what people think about how he acts or his sexual orientation. He'd view it more as a "lol your loss " and move on. Why? Life tends to be too short for an assassin.



I suppose Liara doesn't count since she's an alien and monogendered but I'll give her an honorable mention anyway. ;p

[Paromlin]

Huh?

I suppose I have to draw. By saying "butch" I believe it is clearly implied I mean male characters. Or are you saying Silk Fox is butch?

So Sky is butch, oh... alrighty then. Bioware has fulfilled their quota of butch gay/bi characters back then in 2005. thus everything's ok.

[tmp7704]

Paromlin wrote...

Anyway, I don't think promoting stereotypes - such as gays being flamboyant (Zevran) or outright feminine (Wade and Herren) - is the way to go.

It can be argued they aren't actually promoting gay stereotypes though, because the characters' behaviour is more of result of their respective backgrounds -- Zevran being an orphan raised in a ****house and trained from young to be an assassin, and Wade being an "artiste" type all wrapped up in his desire to create. In other words these characters could be heterosexual and they could still be believable acting in the same way.

In addition, as pointed out earlier having the blacksmith who isn't machismo incarnated is stereotype breaker itself. So having Wade act all manly and whatnot would just turn him into another cliche, really.

[lady winde]

Paromlin wrote...

Huh?

I suppose I have to draw. By saying "butch" I believe it is clearly implied I mean male characters. Or are you saying Silk Fox is butch?

So Sky is butch, oh... alrighty then. Bioware has fulfilled their quota of butch gay/bi characters back then in 2005. thus everything's ok.

I was listing general gay or bi characters they've had in their past games obviously. Sky was just the "butch" example. 

Speaking of stereotypes though, Silk Fox was very much the lady. She wasn't all "butch" that some like to stereotype lesbians as.

I'd still like that drawing though. Now, please.

And I'd like it colored. Within the lines.

[goofygoff]

The first time I enountered them in DA:O, I mentioned to my then bf that Herren definitely tops.

Love those two.

b44l wrote...

Herren & Wade resembled Armand & Albert from The Birdcage quite a bit to me so yeah I always assumed.

OMG YES THIS!

[Koralis]

Andorfiend wrote...

As long as I don't have to listen to their bedtime dialogue.

"Forge me with your love Wade, just don't take forever this time."
"Keep the change Herren.

You sure that wasn't "But... that was so FAAAST?!"   "Of course, Herren.  I AM a Master Lover."

[bzombo]

wow. i must be lost in my own world. the idea hadn't even dawned on me that they were a couple.

[Goth Skunk]

Eli-da-Mage wrote...

Right this has really disturbed me, remember the line when you say to Herren "My men will need armour" and Wade says "Oh, Herren how you torment me so".

I dont have a problem with gays just that line makes a scary thought appear.

Yyyyeaaaahhh....

Wade's not whining about the number of big muscley men he has to make armor for.
He's whining about being forced to mass produce stock armor. Wade prefers crafting unique, special, one-of-a-kind armors.

[Dokarqt]

Goth Skunk wrote...

Ahh yes, "Semantics." the meaning, or an interpretation of the meaning, of a word, sign, sentence.

We have dismissed that claim.

Haha, good one.

[Stormghost]

Paromlin wrote...

davidk1991 wrote...
  Very glad to see Bioware haven't given in to the bigots.

Hmm...

Anyway, I don't think promoting stereotypes - such as gays being flamboyant (Zevran) or outright feminine (Wade and Herren) - is the way to go. Things would be different if their games had some masculine gay/bi characters, as well. Have they included such a character, ever?

Zevran isn't gay... or flamboyant for that matter.  He's bisexual and sex-crazed.

And I agree there could also be more masculine gay/bi characters, but then you'd get people complaining there's too many LGBT characters in the game overall (as some have already).

They can't win...

[Danielsun2]

i genuinly had no idea they were lovers i just thought they were good friends or like the banter





o.0 view wade in a different light now lol

[traversc]

searanox wrote...

I definitely enjoy them as characters, although I don't know if I really like the stereotyping. The issue with it is that while it's certainly not an unrealistic depiction, it's also one of the only depictions that we see in games and the media at large. I feel as if it would be more progressive to simply have them (Wade especially) behave as any others, not effeminate caricatures bordering on self-parody.

Also, although he's a decent voice actor, I have to say that Cam Clarke really gets on my nerves... he keeps on showing up in BioWare games and I can tell it's him no matter how much he tries to disguise his voice. I'm not saying get rid of him, but more variety please.

Paromlin wrote...

Anyway, I don't think promoting
stereotypes - such as gays being flamboyant (Zevran) or outright
feminine (Wade and Herren) - is the way to go. Things would be different
if their games had some masculine gay/bi characters, as well.
Have they included such a character, ever?

First of all, Herren is pretty "masculine" compared to Wade, so I really have no idea where your complaints are coming from?  Seconndly, you guys speak as if Wade/Herren are the only gay couple to ever appear in BW games.  There have been like, a gazillion gay/bi characters in BW games, for example, Sky from Jade Empire. 

[TheComfyCat]

Paromlin wrote...

The standard usage. Flamboyant as extravagant and showy, even queen-ish if you wish.

Sure, we can relativize everything and claim that everything is subjective. Then you can start claiming that drag-queens are masculine because dressing is something superficial... But that's silly.
There are certain personality traits that are considered to be feminine or masculine and that's how things work. You may not agree and that's your prerogative, but saying it's completely subjective and that what someone likes is a superficial thing is stretching things too far.

Concept art is relevant to his character. I'm not in the gaming industry, but I believe the designers and artists talk; as in giving some hints about the character's demeanor. Apparently, Zevran was explained in a way that earned him a lot of flashy colours and a queer outfit. That said, I like his concept art.

Zevran doesn't need to be a stock character. He's one of the [not so masculine] gay/bisexual characters in a game made by a company which hasn't had a single butch gay or bi character in their games ever.

You know what.. you people are free to consider Zevran the epitome of masculinity, whatevah, but don't lecture others who don't and are considerate enough to explain why they think so. K?

Well, I said that appraising masculinity was apparently subjective because we obviously disagree. lol. So I don't think discussing Zevran's masculinity further is necessary. And given how confrontational your last response was, I felt the need to respond. I wasn't trying to lecture you.

Anyway, I don't think promoting stereotypes - such as gays being
flamboyant (Zevran) or outright feminine (Wade and Herren) - is the way
to go. Things would be different if their games had some masculine gay/bi characters, as well.
Have they included such a character, ever?

Your original suggestion that a character like Zevran is "promoting a stereotype" is really the point I'm disagreeing with. I wouldn't mind seeing (more?) "butch gay characters" at all. Especially ones that are actually gay and not bi.