284 réponses à ce sujet

[SimonTheFrog]

Mcjon01 wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Mcjon01 wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

As the cliche goes, bad publicity is good publicity

Indeed.  With two millions copies in weeks for ME 2, Bioware had better realize they should have a hell of a lot of room to let loose for ME 2 DLC and ME 3.  I doubt we will ever see the Ashley/Tali/Thane same sex romances ever again, but still in future it would be good to known Bioware can take strides bravely.  They have a major audience, who gives two craps what the US media thinks, and finally they basically said they can go all out for the last game.

 Go all out damnit and stop self censoring!!!

I just fail to see how it's self-censoring if every character doesn't want to sex everything with a pulse.  It's a stupid complaint.

They spent time recording/possibly developing it, its a waste of resources not to include it.  ME 2 is filled with wasted resources that they have given back to us in chunks, its insulting.

They recorded one flirty scene between Tali and FemShep because they were too lazy to make a unique post-loyalty mission dialog and just had Hale read from the same script as Meer.  They didn't even bother recording any of the other dialogs.  Stop acting like this was some big thing that they were planning to implement and then cut at the last minute, because it isn't.

Looks like you have been around when they made those decisions... 

[Mcjon01]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Looks like you have been around when they made those decisions... 

You're right, the "Tali is a secret lesbian but Bioware is scared of Fox News so they can't show it" theory is much more logical.

[superimposed]

Tali should be able to romance Femshep, but Manshep just knocks her out and has a go.

[Mcjon01]

superimposed wrote...

but Manshep just knocks her out and has a go.

That sounds more like something FemShep would do, in all honesty.

[Sialboats]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Define alienation

Having that horde of heterosexual Talimancers and those more moderate members thereof cry out in indignant rage at their precious Tali as she turns into a bisexual. If the resistance to the mere proposal of the change in character is indiciation enough...

Modifié par Sialboats, 25 mars 2010 - 09:34 .

[Mcjon01]

Sialboats wrote...

change in character

I believe I have identified the issue for you, sir.

[Zeratul20]

Shandepared wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

As to a previous posters point, there is no such thing as clearly not gay. All men and women have sexual tendencies that may be stronger than others, but for all of us there are sets of circumstances where it would be conceivable for even the most "straight" of us to have sex with someone of the same gender.

This is what liberals actually believe.

Look, I won't hold it against you if you are bisexual. You know, your business and everything. Don't assume that you can speak for everyone else though.

... Why would that be something typical for "liberals" to believe?
Personally, I don't entirely agree with Screwoffreg either. I'm straight, and though I can completely understand that someone else CAN be attracted to the same gender, I'm just not. I just don't find a man sexually arousing. So I'm not sure if your theory's entirely correct. I think it's a bit more nuanced than that.

Wait, what were we talking about again?

Modifié par Zeratul20, 25 mars 2010 - 09:45 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

damn Liberals and their... wait what

[Zeratul20]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

damn Liberals and their... wait what

Yeah, I didn't get that either.

[The Angry One]

Mcjon01 wrote...

superimposed wrote...

but Manshep just knocks her out and has a go.

That sounds more like something FemShep would do, in all honesty.

Then again ManShep is the one who cracks his knuckles while looking at pictures of his LI...

[aznsoisauce]

If Tali were romancable for FemSheps, Garrus would actually have competition.

/opinion

[Zeratul20]

The Angry One wrote...

Mcjon01 wrote...

superimposed wrote...

but Manshep just knocks her out and has a go.

That sounds more like something FemShep would do, in all honesty.

Then again ManShep is the one who cracks his knuckles while looking at pictures of his LI...

"I'll never forgot what you said to me on Horizon, wench!" *crack, crack* "It's payback time."

[Goodwood]

Shandepared wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

As to a previous posters point, there is no such thing as clearly not gay. All men and women have sexual tendencies that may be stronger than others, but for all of us there are sets of circumstances where it would be conceivable for even the most "straight" of us to have sex with someone of the same gender.

This is what liberals actually believe.

Look, I won't hold it against you if you are bisexual. You know, your business and everything. Don't assume that you can speak for everyone else though.

Talk about reading too much into things, Shandpatine... 

This issue has nothing to do with ideology. Sociologists and psychologists have done a fairly good job at determining the spectrum of sexuality; basically, ten percent of the population is solidly homosexual, while another ten percent is solidly heterosexual, with the remaining eighty percent scattered throughout the spectrum. IMHO, it's up to the individual person to find within themselves their own sexual identity, a process that goes hand in hand with the other struggles of adolescence.

In regards to the topic at hand: Folks like Kaiden, Ashley, Thane, Miranda or Jacob, who have been adults for quite some time, are already going to have found their own sexual identity (heck, Thane was once married and had a kid, so there goes any plausible rationale for an m/m pairing), so it might not really work well to suddenly say "oh, well, they can go both ways" via a romance pack or whatever. With Liara, it doesn't matter, because asari are monogendered and are quite comfortable mating with any species of either gender. Tali and Jack, on the other hand, are still young enough that they might not have picked a spot where they are comfortable and can thrive emotionally; Jack due to her very unhealthy upbringing (she's quite literally a "tortured soul"), and Tali not having taken enough "me time" to really figure out what she wants (given her laudable, if extreme dedication to her people). Therefore it is perfectly reasonable to assume that they could go for a same-sex relationship, though this depends heavily on the characterization of the romance, how it is written and implemented (something that has led to a good deal of consternation concerning FemShep and Jacob).

Shepard, of course, being entirely an avatar for the player, can go any which way but loose, which is part of the appeal.

Modifié par Goodwood, 25 mars 2010 - 10:12 .

[Wittand25]

Goodwood wrote...

This issue has nothing to do with ideology. Sociologists and psychologists have done a fairly good job at determining the spectrum of sexuality; basically, ten percent of the population is solidly homosexual, while another ten percent is solidly heterosexual, with the remaining eighty percent scattered throughout the spectrum. IMHO, it's up to the individual person to find within themselves their own sexual identity, a process that goes hand in hand with the other struggles of adolescence.

In regards to the topic at hand: Folks like Kaiden, Ashley, Thane, Miranda or Jacob, who have been adults for quite some time, are already going to have found their own sexual identity (heck, Thane was once married and had a kid, so there goes any plausible rationale for an m/m pairing), so it might not really work well to suddenly say "oh, well, they can go both ways" via a romance pack or whatever. With Liara, it doesn't matter, because asari are monogendered and are quite comfortable mating with any species of either gender. Tali and Jack, on the other hand, are still young enough that they might not have picked a spot where they are comfortable and can thrive emotionally; Jack due to her very unhealthy upbringing (she's quite literally a "tortured soul"), and Tali not having taken enough "me time" to really figure out what she wants (given her laudable, if extreme dedication to her people). Therefore it is perfectly reasonable to assume that they could go for a same-sex relationship, though this depends heavily on the characterization of the romance, how it is written and implemented (something that has led to a good deal of consternation concerning FemShep and Jacob).

Shepard, of course, being entirely an avatar for the player, can go any which way but loose, which is part of the appeal.

Thane and Garrus are both aliens and neither has had a relationship with a human woman to my knowledge. So until we learn how the females of the drell and thurians look the conclusion that someone who had sex with an female drell will only have sex with a female human is wrong. Lets asume for example that female drell look like the male but have different coloured skin, than a straight male drell would find a human male more attractive than a human female because the male has approximatly the right shape the female not.
Frankly all of the six LI in game are written in a way that enablening a same-sex romance would work, not that anyone is asking for all of them to be turned bi ( one of each sex would be sufficiant ).

[Goodwood]

I could see how your argument has merit, but since we don't know how drell and turian women differ from the males of those species, that is speculation at best. One of the interesting consistencies of the MEverse is that most of the known sentient species tend not to differ too much from what we acknowledge as human-style thought processes. The hanar and elcor are obvious exceptions, but most of the asari, turians, salarians, quarians, and batarians that we've seen tend, by my reckoning at least, to emulate and enhance certain aspects of the human psyche. The Codex from both games codifies this to a certain degree, at least for the Council species, and dialogue with members of said species further makes these points.



I'm not saying that it's impossible, mind, just not really plausible given what we've seen in the games thus far.

[Pannamaslo]

Goodwood wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

As to a previous posters point, there is no such thing as clearly not gay. All men and women have sexual tendencies that may be stronger than others, but for all of us there are sets of circumstances where it would be conceivable for even the most "straight" of us to have sex with someone of the same gender.

This is what liberals actually believe.

Look, I won't hold it against you if you are bisexual. You know, your business and everything. Don't assume that you can speak for everyone else though.

Talk about reading too much into things, Shandpatine... 

This issue has nothing to do with ideology. Sociologists and psychologists have done a fairly good job at determining the spectrum of sexuality; basically, ten percent of the population is solidly homosexual, while another ten percent is solidly heterosexual, with the remaining eighty percent scattered throughout the spectrum

No.No.No. Don't do this. Kinsey idea of sexuality spectrum is not considered valid or widely used anymore. There is a term of flexibility of sexual orientation and it differs in men and women, but it's not a spectrum and in by no chance in 80% of people. Measuring sexual orientation is difficult for various reasons cdp.sagepub.com/content/15/1/40.full and Kinsey model was just too simplistic.

Tali for femSheps? I wouldn't like changing orientation of a character in the end of a trilogy. It would feel weird, byt it's not impossible.

Modifié par Pannamaslo, 25 mars 2010 - 10:39 .

[Goodwood]

Pannamaslo wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

As to a previous posters point, there is no such thing as clearly not gay. All men and women have sexual tendencies that may be stronger than others, but for all of us there are sets of circumstances where it would be conceivable for even the most "straight" of us to have sex with someone of the same gender.

This is what liberals actually believe.

Look, I won't hold it against you if you are bisexual. You know, your business and everything. Don't assume that you can speak for everyone else though.

Talk about reading too much into things, Shandpatine... 

This issue has nothing to do with ideology. Sociologists and psychologists have done a fairly good job at determining the spectrum of sexuality; basically, ten percent of the population is solidly homosexual, while another ten percent is solidly heterosexual, with the remaining eighty percent scattered throughout the spectrum

No.No.No. Don't do this. Kinsey idea of sexuality spectrum is not considered valid or widely used anymore. There is a term of flexibility of sexual orientation and it differs in men and women, but it's not a spectrum and in by no chance in 80% of people. Measuring sexual orientation is difficult for various reasons cdp.sagepub.com/content/15/1/40.full and Kinsey model was just too simplistic.

Tali for femSheps? I wouldn't like changing orientation of a character in the end of a trilogy. It would feel weird, byt it's not impossible.

This just isn't my day, is it?

I concede the point to you, madam, though I do think that Shand's insertion of ideology into the equation was unjustified -- as I hope you do as well.

[Pannamaslo]

Goodwood wrote...
I concede the point to you, madam, though I do think that Shand's insertion of ideology into the equation was unjustified -- as I hope you do as well.

Things have tendency to get ugly when political factor is added, so I must agree:whistle:

Also Garrus and Thane:

If it was a case that they can be attracted to a menShep, BW would make it so. Apparently female Drell and Turians aren't that different if they both can distinguish between menShep and femShep and be attracted only to femShep. No rocket science here.

EDIT: I just read my previus post, just please ingore my grammar fails. English is not my native:?

Modifié par Pannamaslo, 25 mars 2010 - 10:57 .

[screwoffreg]

Pannamaslo wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

As to a previous posters point, there is no such thing as clearly not gay. All men and women have sexual tendencies that may be stronger than others, but for all of us there are sets of circumstances where it would be conceivable for even the most "straight" of us to have sex with someone of the same gender.

This is what liberals actually believe.

Look, I won't hold it against you if you are bisexual. You know, your business and everything. Don't assume that you can speak for everyone else though.

Talk about reading too much into things, Shandpatine... 

This issue has nothing to do with ideology. Sociologists and psychologists have done a fairly good job at determining the spectrum of sexuality; basically, ten percent of the population is solidly homosexual, while another ten percent is solidly heterosexual, with the remaining eighty percent scattered throughout the spectrum

No.No.No. Don't do this. Kinsey idea of sexuality spectrum is not considered valid or widely used anymore. There is a term of flexibility of sexual orientation and it differs in men and women, but it's not a spectrum and in by no chance in 80% of people. Measuring sexual orientation is difficult for various reasons cdp.sagepub.com/content/15/1/40.full and Kinsey model was just too simplistic.

Tali for femSheps? I wouldn't like changing orientation of a character in the end of a trilogy. It would feel weird, byt it's not impossible.

Lmao I missed all the fun.  That's what you get for sleeping

1. The Kinsey Scale being too simplistic is actually a credit to my argument as recent findings suggest that even his definitions were far too basic and human sexuality is far more complex than even he realized.  That just means things get even messier when trying to define who is gay or straight.
2. The study linked basically comes down to scientists struggling with finding the correct way to define sexual behaviors and the need for further study.
3. We are talking about electronic simulations of aliens that do not exist.  As has been mentioned 100,000,000 times before most peoples issue with how same sex relationships are handled in ME is that it seems they are completely marginalized or explained away.  If Bioware had just been upfront and there were no indications such things were options, I think most people could accept that.  In LIGHT of Bioware's PREVIOUS GAMES, as in NEARLY ALL OF THEM, where such options are available, it is confusing to see why the sudden philosophical change and raises questions as to motives.  On top of this increasing evidence certain things were removed can only fuel the fires of peoples frustrations.

Ultimately, its Biowares choice.  That doesn't mean people have to be happy about it.  My primary frustration is that it seems the writers intentions were "watered" down, or at least it seems so.  From a creative perspective, that bothers me as I know what its like to be edited by people who assume they are good writers (they aren't).  This may not be the case, of course, and it may all be a tremendous misunderstanding.

Modifié par screwoffreg, 25 mars 2010 - 03:44 .

[Vaenier]

BioWare is mean. They make Tali lead you on with the same dialogue from the male Shep flirting, and then just stops. Nothing, suddenly the engines are the most important thing in the galaxy...

Frak you Bioware. :'(

[Raphael diSanto]

Sialboats wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Define alienation

Having that horde of heterosexual Talimancers and those more moderate members thereof cry out in indignant rage at their precious Tali as she turns into a bisexual. If the resistance to the mere proposal of the change in character is indiciation enough...

I don't think the resistance is coming from the 'hordes of talimancers'....

[JeanLuc761]

Vaenier wrote...

BioWare is mean. They make Tali lead you on with the same dialogue from the male Shep flirting, and then just stops. Nothing, suddenly the engines are the most important thing in the galaxy...
Frak you Bioware. :'(

To be fair, Garrus and his f***ing calibrations take up an inordinate amount of time for malesheps.

Not saying Garrus was intented to be bisexual but MaleSheps get the short end of the stick too.

As for Tali...personally it seems out of character to suddenly go bisexual (or lesbian, depending on how you look at it) but I wouldn't get angry at Bioware if they chose to implement it.  As long as they don't change her character from the perspective of a male Shepard to suit (i.e. male shepard, tali should be STRAIGHT), then I have zero issue with her becoming a lesbian for female sheps.

Modifié par JeanLuc761, 25 mars 2010 - 03:55 .

[Wild Still]

Goodwood wrote...

Why the heck not?

Because at this point irritating the Tali fans is the easiest way to troll. The Tali fans on the other hand are amazingly vocal, so some of them respond immediately and repeatedly to any posts designed to incite them. It's sort of like the circle of life, but with more vitriol.

[Mcjon01]

Gay PEopL

Where

BIOWARE

Whe