37 réponses à ce sujet

[SithLordExarKun]

Ok for me FFXIII wasn't exactly the best of the series but it was merely one game in the Crystallis XIII compilation with the other one being Versus XIII.

Is anyone else actually hyping up for this game? I for one think the concept is interesting seeing that the world there is heavily based ofd the modern world and that the combat gameplay is similar to Kingdom Hearts and GOW.

By the way when do you speculate it will be released? i heard that the development team for versus assisted the team for XIII so that may have set back the release date further.

[MerinTB]

No PS3, so I don't even bother to pay any attention to it.



Amidst much of the bashing of FF XIII, however, I did see many hoping that Versus would be different. I think they are going to be mostly disappointed.

[SithLordExarKun]

Why disappointed exactly? The mechanics in versus are different where you don't actually have a turn based battle like in 13.

But yeah there is a chance that i or they may be disappointed but thats the least of our worries seeing that this game has been in development for so long and hardly any announcements of it, the director isn't even sure if the game will be at E3 this year.

Update:

Well it seems like versus XIII will have somewhat a much more open world than XIII like the world map in VII and VIII. Source :http://ps3.ign.com/articles/107/1078207p1.html

This would be a welcome change after the super linearity of FFXIII where imo, didn't really feel like a world but a bunch of levels pasted together with cut scenes.

Modifié par SithLordExarKun, 25 mars 2010 - 03:52 .

[MerinTB]

Just a different game design goal, I'm sure.

---

And FF XIII is hardly turn-based. It's totally real-time. You sit there, making not a single click on the controller once battle starts, and the battle continues without you. The only character who won't do anything while the clock ticks is the Leader whom you have direct control over.

No offense to you personally, but "turn-based" gets tossed around so much that I think people lose the meaning somewhere. Traditionally, a "turn-based" game means each player (or participant, in the case of computer-controlled characters / enemies), gets a turn and until they take that turn nothing happens.

The ATB is a hybrid, sure, of turn-based and real-time, but the action is real time. Even if you discount that you can use Techniques and Items as often as you want without recharge (as long as you have the items in question or the TP), all the ATB really does is act like a recharge on your powers.
Like ME2 does, more or less.

FF XIII's combat is really not turn-based. I somewhat understand why people call it such, but we really need terms created for what most mean - most who say turn-based are often saying is that abilities are "charged-based" instead "how-fast-you-hit-a-button-based", and sometimes that how effective you are in combat is more "stat-based" than "manual-dexterity-based."

Real time = combat proceeds as time passes without waiting for anyone to act
Turn based = each participant gets a turn, and no one else can act until their turn

Want some examples of actual turn-based games?
Check out all the SSI RPG's (Wizard's Crown, all the AD&D games, Buck Rogers, etc.), or the Silent Storm games, or ToEE, or Fallout.

---

This is like people referring to cut-scenes as FMV. FMV is NOT animated - it's a specific type of video in a game (or other medium), and Full Motion Video means actually using real people and objects not animated ones. Wing Commander's 3, 4 and Prophecy use FMV. FF XIII does not.

I understand you didn't bring this up - but I see it all the time.

Modifié par MerinTB, 25 mars 2010 - 05:52 .

[MightySword]

I don't care about battle system, if it's good then great, if it's not so good than ... well, doesn't matter since I doubt it will be exceedingly bad. But I hope they will NOT have the same narrative style that's of FFXIII.

[Seagloom]

MerinTB wrote...

This is like people referring to cut-scenes as FMV. FMV is NOT animated - it's a specific type of video in a game (or other medium), and Full Motion Video means actually using real people and objects not animated ones. Wing Commander's 3, 4 and Prophecy use FMV. FF XIII does not.

I understand you didn't bring this up - but I see it all the time.

I think this is a holdover from gaming past. During the cartridge era, when cut scenes were sliding animated pictures or still screens with flying text, video cutscenes were distinguished as FMV or Full Motion Video. Back then EGM, Gamepro, Next Generation, GameFan... most console magazines basically... labeled those cutscenes as FMV, regardless of whether the footage depicted actors, traditionally animated or CG characters.

I'm not sure when the term was coined, but it seems popular culture twisted it long ago. I know that back then anyone I ran into that new anything of gaming labeled any video footage FMV. After so many years of that, it probably stuck. At least that's how it was around here. Anecdotal, I know.

[the_one_54321]

FFXIII is Active Turn Based, with direct control over the party leader, and direction control over the AI of the party members. It's scalable so that you can do almost nothing, and just sit back watching the combat, or you can take a fully active role giving full direction for each action taken.



The term Active Turn Based is very specific to this style of turn determination. It's not like RPG that everyone insists has 500 million different definitions. (stupidest way ever to manage a descriptions, imo)



FFXIII:V is supposedly going to be an action game. No turns of any kind, active or otherwise. Another huge mechanical difference will be the inclusion of a full world map, and the return of a world map air ship. It will share the crystal theme that covers all the Nova Crystal series, but otherwise will be significantly different in style. This game seems like it will have blood, a seriously dark atmosphere, a protagonist that has more than just dark and moody in his personality, (he's supposed to be cheery around those he's familiar with, but shy and withdrawn around strangers) and the game will center around a darker meaner plot that has parallels to yakuza type portrayals.

[MerinTB]

I don't mean to be nit-picky, but the distinction was clear until companies like Square tried to muddy the water -

Real Time = combat proceeds as time passes without waiting for anyone to act
Turn Based = each participant gets a turn, and no one else can act until their turn

The ATB pretends to be something different, but it is really (even more so in FF XIII than it was back in VII where I believe it was introduced) real time.

The A for Active is what makes it real-time.

It's like looking at Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale or Kotor and claiming they are turn based because of only being able to give one command at a time to your character and the mechanics behind the combat use rules adopted from PnP turn based games.
Or that an MMO is "turn based" because abilities recharge.

The ATB is it's own unique system, but when you look at the two strict definitions, it falls into real time.

Modifié par MerinTB, 25 mars 2010 - 07:55 .

[the_one_54321]

MerinTB wrote...
The ATB pretends to be something different, but it is really (even more so in FF XIII than it was back in VII where I believe it was introduced) real time.

The A for Active is what makes it real-time.

You have a pretty good grasp on what turn based is/was. But there are not only two catagories. "Not turn based" = "real time" is an inaccurate claim.

ATB is not traditional turn based, but it is far from being real time. Real time mean that when I click the button, he swings the sword, or the gun fires, or what have you. In ATB you give instructions the character, and the character acts out those instructions independant of you based on the time guage. Those time guages function independant of all the NPCs and enemies, but they are still time guages, and the character still acts on a timer and not on your button-press/click.

[MerinTB]

the_one_54321 wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
The ATB pretends to be something different, but it is really (even more so in FF XIII than it was back in VII where I believe it was introduced) real time.

The A for Active is what makes it real-time.

You have a pretty good grasp on what turn based is/was. But there are not only two catagories. "Not turn based" = "real time" is an inaccurate claim.

ATB is not traditional turn based, but it is far from being real time. Real time mean that when I click the button, he swings the sword, or the gun fires, or what have you. In ATB you give instructions the character, and the character acts out those instructions independant of you based on the time guage. Those time guages function independant of all the NPCs and enemies, but they are still time guages, and the character still acts on a timer and not on your button-press/click.

The part I bolded is absolutely inaccurate, and what I was talking about.  Real time does NOT mean that you hit the button and a sword is swung or a gun is fired.  Real time simply means that all participants are acting simultaneously.

You are distinguishing between stat-based versus manual-dexterity based there - between giving your character(s) orders to follow based on their abilities as opposed to you hitting a button and your character immediately performing some action depending on how you aim or how quick you press the button.

Think of it this way - USUALLY turn-based vs. real-time is used in reference to strategy games.  RTS is as common to see as RPG or FPS.  RTS is Real Time Strategy.

It's the difference between Command & Conquer and Starcraft (RTS) as compared to Civilization or Romance of the Three Kingdoms (turn-based.)

Do you really think that in Starcraft you hit a button and a gun is fired or sword is swung?

You are making a false distinction - real-time doesn't need to be based on how fast you hit a button.

All that Real Time as opposed to Turn Based is meant to describe is the time-keeping system of the game; i.e. it shows when participants can act.

---

As for time gauges, I alread spoke to that.  ME2 has the same thing, so does DAO, so do most MMO's.  Abilities on timers are not elements of a turn-based game.  If anything they are more prevalent in real time games.

---

Look, people use words wrong all the time.  And sometimes they are used wrong so often that to many people the wrong usage gets commonly adopted.
Think of the following misused words/phrases:

beg's the question
I could care less
irregardless
dethaw

Just because many people use a word or phrase in the wrong context does not suddenly make it right due to the sheer number of people making the mistake.

Real Time, Turn Based, FMV - these are terms that were created to define something.

Modifié par MerinTB, 25 mars 2010 - 10:31 .

[the_one_54321]

MerinTB wrote...
Real time does NOT mean that you hit the button and a sword is swung or a gun is fired.  Real time simply means that all participants are acting simultaneously.

I've never heard it used that way. In terms of RTS you click and they act. But I'm not dismissing you here. I'd just like you to provide some more evidence of the usage, because this is pretty drastic departure from my previous understanding of it.

MerinTB wrote...
beg's the question
I could care less
irregardless
dethaw

I actually don't use those, because they're really dumb mistakes. You're preaching to the qoir on that one.

[mattp420]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Ok for me FFXIII wasn't exactly the best of the series but it was merely one game in the Crystallis XIII compilation with the other one being Versus XIII.

You're forgetting PSP's Agito.

Is anyone else actually hyping up for this game? I for one think the concept is interesting seeing that the world there is heavily based ofd the modern world and that the combat gameplay is similar to Kingdom Hearts and GOW.

By the way when do you speculate it will be released? i heard that the development team for versus assisted the team for XIII so that may have set back the release date further.

I'll don't think I can get hyped for this game until something more than FMV:P trailers being shown.  And it may not even be shown at E3 kotaku.com/5473605/dont-hold-your-breath-for-final-fantasy-versus-xiii-at-e3.

At this rate, I expect Diablo 3 to come out before Versus.

[SithLordExarKun]

MerinTB wrote...

Just a different game design goal, I'm sure.

A much different design seeing that versus is actually going back to its roots like the traditional FF games and as i said its combat system is similar to that of KH(at least thats what they said).

But i have a feeling it will be a very long time till this game gets released.

[MerinTB]

the_one_54321 wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
Real time does NOT mean that you hit the button and a sword is swung or a gun is fired.  Real time simply means that all participants are acting simultaneously.

I've never heard it used that way. In terms of RTS you click and they act. But I'm not dismissing you here. I'd just like you to provide some more evidence of the usage, because this is pretty drastic departure from my previous understanding of it.

Ok, here you go


http://en.wikipedia....ystems_in_games "In turn-based games, game flow is partitioned into well-defined and visible parts, called turns. A player of a turn-based game is allowed a period of analysis (sometimes bounded, sometimes unbounded) before committing to a game action, ensuring a separation between the game flow and the thinking process, which in turn presumably leads to more optimal choices. Once every player has taken his or her turn, that round of play is over, and any special shared processing is done. This is followed by the next round of play. In games where the game flow unit is time, turns may represent such things as years, months, weeks or days."
"In real-time games, game time progresses continuously according to the game clock. Players perform actions simultaneously as opposed to in sequential units or turns. Players must perform actions with the consideration that their opponents are actively working against them in real time, and may act at any moment. This introduces time management considerations and additional challenges (such as physical coordination in the case of video games)."

http://www.giantbomb...combat/92-2332/
" RPG combat in which combat actions are performed in real-time, rather than through a turn-based structure.
Real-time combat is a style of enemy engagement  used in RPGs as an alternative to turn-based combat. 
Player characters and enemy NPCs do not have to wait their turn in order to act, but instead may act as quickly as it takes for an action to be readied, whether that be as simple as swinging/firing a weapon or casting a spell.
To prevent the spamming of powerful techniques, specific actions may be assigned a "cool down" time, which requires the player wait a specific amount of time before that character can repeat that action. "

http://youarelose.bl...-time-rpgs.html "After having played so many turn-based RPGs over the past year or so, I've noticed quite a few differences with Final Fantasy IX. Most recently on the DS, I played Dragon Quest IV, but I also played Persona 3 and Final Fantasy III relatively recently. I must have a strategic mind because I greatly prefer a turn-based system of battle, versus an active system such as in any Final Fantasy after number 4. I just don't like the idea that if I don't act quickly enough, the enemy will get to go before me or even sneak in an extra attack. This might be why I liked the strategic battles of Final Fantasy X so much: every enemy had a weakness I could exploit, and I always knew the exact turn order of all characters
and enemies.
Back to Final Fantasy IX, it continues the FF tradition of employing a real-time battle system."

http://archive.games...egy1/index.shtm "Obviously, the basic difference between real-time strategy and turn-based strategy is real-time's continuous play."

http://www.techimo.c...turn-based.html "turn-based are games like Civilization, where there's actually a round where everybody takes a turn. These types of games are somewhat slower, because you can normally make your turn as long as you want and do a lot of micromanagement"

http://fallout.wikia...n-based_combat "Turn-based combat simply means that during combat the game world is
paused and each combatant is allowed to attack in order"

http://www.roleplayg...-era-t4212.html "a turn-based style, allowing every player involved equal time and space"

I could keep going.  I won't.  You said you'd never heard it used these ways, and wanted proof.  I did the google search and quoting for you.

[MerinTB]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

Just a different game design goal, I'm sure.

A much different design seeing that versus is actually going back to its roots like the traditional FF games and as i said its combat system is similar to that of KH(at least thats what they said).

But i have a feeling it will be a very long time till this game gets released.

Uhm - roots?  Final Fantasy was born from Ultima and Wizardry.  The original Final Fantasy's, until 7, were actually turn-based.
FF VII and almost all of them going forward (ignoring games like Tactics, Tactics Advanced) use the ATB which is pretty much real time.

here's the wikipedia description of KH combat - "Kingdom Hearts is influenced by its parent franchise, Final
Fantasy,[6]
and carries gameplay elements over into its own action-based, hack and slash system. The main battle party consists of
three characters: Sora, Donald Duck and Goofy.[7]
Sora is directly controlled by the player from a third person camera angle.[8]
All other party members are computer-controlled,[9]
though the player can customize their behavior to an extent through the
pause menu.[10]
Donald and Goofy are the computer-controlled characters that are usable
in most areas. However, nearly every world in the game features its own
party member who can be chosen to replace Goofy or Donald in the party
while the party is in that world."

Uhm, sounds like FF XIII without the Paradigm system.

By roots, do you mean FF 1-6, or FF 7-13 (minus oddities like 11)?

[MerinTB]

mattp420 wrote...
 FMV:P trailers

There are live actors recorded in the trailers you are talking about? <_<

http://en.wikipedia....ll_motion_video
http://en.wikipedia....FMV-based_games
http://www.pcguide.c...ications-c.html

FMV is also a telecom term used to define the FPS of a video signal.

The term has morphed in gaming communities to mean any pre-rendered animations, but, again, as I was saying, just because large groups of people use a term wrong...

[Wicked 702]

the_one_54321 wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
beg's the question
I could care less
irregardless
dethaw

I actually don't use those, because they're really dumb mistakes. You're preaching to the qoir on that one.

I like to use irregardless because I swear Stephen Colbert made that famous, so it's awesome.

My personal favorite is "all intensive purposes".....so wrong!

On topic: If this game is good I'll rethink finally getting a PS3. Maybe....

[Skynet877]

I'll buy it if they make it for Xbox 360.  Final Fantasy XIII is the best Final Fantasy ever.

[SithLordExarKun]

MerinTB wrote...




Uhm, sounds like FF XIII without the Paradigm system.

Have you even played  kingdom hearts? versus 13 is a farcry from 13 when it comes to the battle system, this is what a typical KH battle looks like : . You actually control  the character rather than simply select which attack you want to unleash like XIII.

And then theres the world map and exploration, something which XIII seriously lacks(except chapter 11 which doesn't count) so how is it "just like XIII minus the paradigm" when theres a more action based combat system along with an open world map?

Similar? Maybe, but the same? No.

MerinTB wrote...
By roots, do you mean FF 1-6, or FF 7-13 (minus oddities like 11)?

By roots i meant like the traditional worldmap they had in IV,VII and VIII(these are the ones i've played) so the game is going to be alot less linear than XIII.

Modifié par SithLordExarKun, 26 mars 2010 - 02:56 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Sooooooooooooooooooo



FF13 Versus = FF12 or is the combat more like ?

[SithLordExarKun]

Its more like Kingdom Hearts.

[Beetgreen]

This is not 1997 anymore. A turn based, completely linear RPG has no place in the gaming world. Final Fantasy XIII is a living fossil. 
I think Final Fantasy Versus XIII will be better but I hate the art direction.

Modifié par Beetgreen, 26 mars 2010 - 11:13 .

[superimposed]

MerinTB wrote...

Just a different game design goal, I'm sure.

---

And FF XIII is hardly turn-based. It's totally real-time. You sit there, making not a single click on the controller once battle starts, and the battle continues without you. The only character who won't do anything while the clock ticks is the Leader whom you have direct control over.

No offense to you personally, but "turn-based" gets tossed around so much that I think people lose the meaning somewhere. Traditionally, a "turn-based" game means each player (or participant, in the case of computer-controlled characters / enemies), gets a turn and until they take that turn nothing happens.

The ATB is a hybrid, sure, of turn-based and real-time, but the action is real time. Even if you discount that you can use Techniques and Items as often as you want without recharge (as long as you have the items in question or the TP), all the ATB really does is act like a recharge on your powers.
Like ME2 does, more or less.

FF XIII's combat is really not turn-based. I somewhat understand why people call it such, but we really need terms created for what most mean - most who say turn-based are often saying is that abilities are "charged-based" instead "how-fast-you-hit-a-button-based", and sometimes that how effective you are in combat is more "stat-based" than "manual-dexterity-based."

Real time = combat proceeds as time passes without waiting for anyone to act
Turn based = each participant gets a turn, and no one else can act until their turn

Want some examples of actual turn-based games?
Check out all the SSI RPG's (Wizard's Crown, all the AD&D games, Buck Rogers, etc.), or the Silent Storm games, or ToEE, or Fallout.

---

This is like people referring to cut-scenes as FMV. FMV is NOT animated - it's a specific type of video in a game (or other medium), and Full Motion Video means actually using real people and objects not animated ones. Wing Commander's 3, 4 and Prophecy use FMV. FF XIII does not.

I understand you didn't bring this up - but I see it all the time.

I don't understand.
Please make a turn-based FMV to explain.

[superimposed]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Sooooooooooooooooooo

FF13 Versus = FF12 or is the combat more like ?

In twelve you could either let the game do it for you or take direct control.

In 13 you press a button and that's it.

[MerinTB]

superimposed wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Sooooooooooooooooooo

FF13 Versus = FF12 or is the combat more like ?

In twelve you could either let the game do it for you or take direct control.

In 13 you press a button and that's it.

Yeah, have fun with that - just keep pressing "Auto" without adjusting your paradigms, without leveling up your characters, without equipping the right combination of items and weapons, without using items or techniques in combat -

just use the default items, the default paradigm, the default battle team, and only hit auto.  See how far that gets you.