75 réponses à ce sujet

[Tlazolteotl]

No.

There a difference between saying something is something it's not, and saying something is something it is.

It's possible to kill everything in the game without firing your gun as an adept. Is it "good?" no.

It's possible to kill most things in the game with an SMG as a vanguard. Is it "good?" no.

Close minded people cling to an opinion in the face of contrary evidence. The evidence is that Tali is weak.

[SirEmilCrane]

Tlazolteotl wrote...

Close minded people cling to an opinion in the face of contrary evidence. The evidence is that Tali is weak.

I've given you plenty of evidence that she is not weak though
E-Drain can almost double her shield strength. She is really effective at killing stuff with squad ammo powers. Combat drone, even with its long cooldown is a nice distraction. I've seen it hang up scions, they get stuck in a loop of almost attacking then getting stunned and having to restart their attack. Hack a geth prime sometime, its hilarious, doesn't often happen but hwen you get the chance, lol. More often hack hunters and rocket troopers, geth firefights end really quickly.

[Tlazolteotl]

No, you've only given evidence that she can do stuff, and that stuff helps you win combats.

Every character does stuff, and that stuff wins combats.

[SirEmilCrane]

Tlazolteotl wrote...

No, you've only given evidence that she can do stuff, and that stuff helps you win combats.
Every character does stuff, and that stuff wins combats.

I fail to see the difference

[Tlazolteotl]

The difference is, there's a gradient.

Some characters are better than others.

By just saying "this is what this character can do" is total fail at comparing that character to others.

Which is the entire point of saying a character is stronger or weaker.

Hence, you're the close-minded one.

[SirEmilCrane]

It all depends on what the player wants out of their squad. I get exactly what I want out of Tali.



As far as a distraction goes until you get legion she's it. And her combat drone is a great distraction. The drone is good at knocking enemies out of cover allowing me to line up shots. It also diverts everything's attention except praetorians. Who else had a power that can do that? Legion, who shows up too late to participate in may missions.



She is also good at close range killing, not as good as say grunt, but grunt has no other useful skills for a soldier because I fulfill everything he provides. Jacob and jack can't hurt protected enemies, making them as good as shotgunners without powers.



She can hack synthetics, providing that ability early in the game. Not the best ability full stop but she is good at doing it.



She can drop shields and improve her own, making her more resilient to kill mos things in CQB. use squad ammo powers and she kills even more stuff in CQB.



As to how this compliments my playstyle. I play the soldier like gears of war. Moving from cover to cover, stop and pop. Am ability that knocks enemies from cover and draws fire away from me is a great plus. Someone who can provide this and close in support is even better. And dropping shields without having to use ammo is also good.

[Tlazolteotl]

If all you're using a 30s cooldown power for is knocking people out of cover, you can use jacob and/or jack for that, and more often.
Pull, for instance .. just hit it whenever you have line of effect, and even if they're back in cover by the time it goes off, they'll stagger out of it. At a 9s cooldown, that's almost spammable by comparison.
To be fair, I consider drone the best power in the game ... on an engineer. 30s is just too much.

Let me use a different case to illustrate the strength of cooldowns.
I'll use Tali from ME1, just so there's no bias here.

Taking just Sabotage as an example, you hit your foes with it, and they don't shoot back. It's awesome, no?
Garrus has it, too ... and he also has damping (for increasing Sabotage radius), and he also has uses assault rifles and sniper rifles.
But Tali is the stronger character.
Why?
'cos with her machinist's duration boost and cooldown boosting armour mod and/or omni-tool, by mid-game she can potentially use Sabotage repeatedly and her targets never get a shot off.
And she can do the same with Damping, Overload, Shield Boost (which is scary when combined with her electonics and quarian machinist shield bonuses), and AI hacking ...
In contrast, Garrus has to put 7 points in first aid to unlock electronics.

Now sure, if all you're using Garrus for is shooting and opening stuff, he's fantastic.
But Tali was awesome for lockdown. Sure, her abilities don't work as well vs varren creepers etc, but shotgun is good for weapon force (even if you can't afford to put points in it) in those situations .. and damping is still useful.

Thus, speaking of tiers, she's right up there, and if it weren't for the silly "line of effect" stuff in ME1 (i.e. those tech bombs hitting walls all the time), she'd be top tier.

And then there's Wrex.
He has CC (throw), he has ridiculous DPS (weapon+warp), he's invincible (best armours in the game+immunity+barrier+shield boost), and .. err .. he regenerates.
That's god tier.

See the difference?
ME2 Tali isn't useless. You find uses for her, and that's fine.
She's bottom tier.

[lastpawn]

Tlazolteotl wrote...

And then there's Wrex.
He has CC (throw), he has ridiculous DPS (weapon+warp), he's invincible (best armours in the game+immunity+barrier+shield boost), and .. err .. he regenerates.
That's god tier.

Whenever I use Grunt, I think less of him for not being a biotic. I'm a bioticist. If you can't use biotics, I think less of you. Wrex is indeed god tier.

And Tali is fine in ME2. Fine being the average of her being great for some missions, OK for others... and utterly useless for others.

[Cascadus]

That actually always confused me. Grunt is supposed to be the perfect krogan, but he doesn't have any developed biotic abilities, making him more or less inferior to Battlemasters.

[The Uncanny]

Cascadus wrote...

That actually always confused me. Grunt is supposed to be the perfect krogan, but he doesn't have any developed biotic abilities, making him more or less inferior to Battlemasters.

Yes. The team you assemble are supposed to be the best of the best, right? Only being able to max out three of their abilities, at most, really doesn't really give me that feeling. Your team in ME1 felt like a match for Shepard, this time around they just don't.

Jack, for instance, is supposed to be the most powerful human biotic of all time or something. And yet all she can cast is Shockwave and Pull. Frankly that makes her seem pretty weedy in comparison to my renegade adept.

[Heart Collector]

Cascadus wrote...

That actually always confused me. Grunt is supposed to be the perfect krogan, but he doesn't have any developed biotic abilities, making him more or less inferior to Battlemasters.

Well, he's only been out of the tank a few days... Give him a break

[Tlazolteotl]

Feed him some eezo?

[SirEmilCrane]

@ Tlazolteol- That's your opinion man. I get everything I want out of Tali, can't say the same for some squadmates. And life requires defences to be down. Combat drone doesn't.

And she still can kill stuff in CQB with squad ammo really well. But if you don't want to even consider the possibility that I ma be right, fine.

She suits my playstyle, thats all there is too it.

[Collider]

Tali's combat drone is really useful. AI hacking is useful for when that Geth prime or mech breaks your cover. And energy drain is great against shields. Ultimately I could care less about how useful a squad mate goes, I just go with which ones I feel like. Which is Tali + Mordin, Garrus, Jacob, Grunt, or Legion.

[casedawgz]

I bring Tali, if only to fondly reminisce about Minsc.

[tonnactus]

Tlazolteotl wrote...

No, you've only given evidence that she can do stuff, and that stuff helps you win combats.
Every character does stuff, and that stuff wins combats.

Evidence:With shield drain, she is better then miranda and garrus, when it comes to shielded enemies.It takes out their shields and improves her durability. Garrus like to drop in seconds in a firefight like miranda...
Even grunt use more cover and that more frequently.

[tonnactus]

Cascadus wrote...

That actually always confused me. Grunt is supposed to be the perfect krogan, but he doesn't have any developed biotic abilities, making him more or less inferior to Battlemasters.

At least he should have warp.Okeer made him with collector tech and he isnt a biotic???

[Heart Collector]

tonnactus wrote...

Cascadus wrote...

That actually always confused me. Grunt is supposed to be the perfect krogan, but he doesn't have any developed biotic abilities, making him more or less inferior to Battlemasters.

At least he should have warp.Okeer made him with collector tech and he isnt a biotic???

My guess is, we may see him introduced to biotics in ME3 (if he's there)... Some time will have passed, so he may go through a phase like his loyalty quest thingy.

[binaryemperor]

I always thought the shotgun would be a good weapon for an engineer. Not from an ME standpoint so much as gaming in general. Almost all the "engineer" classes in various shooters tend to use them. That or SMGs

I'm perfectly fine Tali has a shotgun. I'm not fine with the fact that the shotgun (except maybe the eviscerator) is horrible in ME2 unless you have the barrel jammed a few feet down the orifice of an enemy.

Shotguns are usually the most prevalent and reliable weapon in gaming history. Apparently they don't age well in the future.

Modifié par binaryemperor, 29 mars 2010 - 07:51 .

[tonnactus]

Heart Collector wrote...


My guess is, we may see him introduced to biotics in ME3 (if he's there)... Some time will have passed, so he may go through a phase like his loyalty quest thingy.

No.The best explanation would be that his development wasnt completed when shepardt take him out of his tank.So he has to go back in this and finish it.

[Heart Collector]

tonnactus wrote...


No.The best explanation would be that his development wasnt completed when shepardt take him out of his tank.So he has to go back in this and finish it.

I don't know... Didn't Okeer say that Grunt was ready? Don't remember right now, and I don't think I have an Okeer save to verify this.
Either way, I guess both possibilites are viable. We'll see what path Bio chooses.

[IllusiveMike]

I believe that you only develop biotics if you are exposed to Element Zero while in the womb AND your nervous systems happens to figure out how to incorporate it. In the tank, Grunt was fairly safe from outside contaminants. Also, since you either become a biotic or get cancer from the eezo exposure, maybe Okeer wasn't willing to risk his "legacy" on the cancer thing.

[gauntz]

IllusiveMike wrote...

I believe that you only develop biotics if you are exposed to Element Zero while in the womb AND your nervous systems happens to figure out how to incorporate it. In the tank, Grunt was fairly safe from outside contaminants. Also, since you either become a biotic or get cancer from the eezo exposure, maybe Okeer wasn't willing to risk his "legacy" on the cancer thing.

I don't think Bioware has released any information on biotic characteristics with different species, beyond that Asari all have biotic potential. The impression I got from Krogan for example is that they're the ultimate predators (oddly enough they look chunky and slow), and that a number of them known as "Battlemasters" are natural biotics. And even if Krogan (and presumably also Salarians/Turians/Batarians) have to use the same risky treatments that humans depend upon, is there anything that suggests that they will risk cancer etc?

Anyhow, seems none has any positive experiences with Tali/Jack as a CQC squadie (beyond one, and I don't think squad ammo suddenly makes it all worthwhile), so I'll conclude they're not optimal when used like that. That said, I'd like to add that Jack (and shockwave) certainly has uses. Beyond pull being a key component in Warp Explosions, which with a Warper (Miranda/Thane I think) makes it an effective squad composition, consider the Throw vs. Shockwave argument. Even at a lone pulled target, Throw rarely does more damage than a Warp Explosion, except when there's somewhere to fall. But in those situations, Shockwave works just as well, if not better (my anecdotal impression is that Shockwave'd targets "bounce" higher than Thrown targets are sent.) Shockwave is also excellent as a stagger inducer at shielded targets; a few extra seconds of fire without returned fire is golden. Shockwave also staggers in AOE.

I've almost only played on insanity, and I think people exaggerate the level of shielded targets. Sure virtually all targets have shield, but it's not like you spend half an hour spamming Warp/Overload to get them away. I'd even argue that against stripped, non-pulled targets, Shockwave is better than Throw because for example when enemies are backed against a wall yet face an open area before you, Shockwave will often send them bouncing more "straight" and high and often away from their ledge, while Throw will just send them against the wall.

[tonnactus]

IllusiveMike wrote...

I believe that you only develop biotics if you are exposed to Element Zero while in the womb AND your nervous systems happens to figure out how to incorporate it. In the tank, Grunt was fairly safe from outside contaminants. Also, since you either become a biotic or get cancer from the eezo exposure, maybe Okeer wasn't willing to risk his "legacy" on the cancer thing.

Krogans did it with surgery(mass effect wikia).Those who where not natural biotics.

[IllusiveMike]

tonnactus wrote...

IllusiveMike wrote...

I believe that you only develop biotics if you are exposed to Element Zero while in the womb AND your nervous systems happens to figure out how to incorporate it. In the tank, Grunt was fairly safe from outside contaminants. Also, since you either become a biotic or get cancer from the eezo exposure, maybe Okeer wasn't willing to risk his "legacy" on the cancer thing.

Krogans did it with surgery(mass effect wikia).Those who where not natural biotics.

Huh, did not know that.  I just figured it would be similar to the human info in the codex. 

But back to the topic, I think as far as canon goes, it makes sense that Quarians would specialize in shotguns.  They all live on cramped ships where most combat would be close quarters.  That may be why she had one in ME1.  

In practice, at least on the harder difficulties, shotgunners don't last long.  Even Grunt seems to do better with an assault rifle than his Claymore.