84 réponses à ce sujet

[LuciBae]

It says both on the inserts and on the back of the DA:O box that the DLC is a "One time use code available with full retail purchase."  While I personally think that it's common sense to not expect DLC codes to be usable when buying a game used, I suppose I can see how someone might be confused.  I'm also under the impression that "full retail purchase" is a fancy way of saying "new," so once again, it seems like common sense that the man in question not expect them to absolutely positively work.

I know GameStop is the Big Bad Wolf of the video game retail industry, but good grief!  The suit reads like GameStop is in some big, super-secret conspiracy to make consumers pay more for used games than they would for a new copy--and the money from the additional purchase of the DLC with their scheme doesn't even GO to GameStop.  True, the employee selling him the game didn't halt him mid-purchase to let him know that the DLC codes might or might not work.  But if the DLC was oh-so-important to his gaming experience and (as the suit seems to paint it) a very large part of why he chose to purchase the game at all, why didn't he spare a second to double-check that the DLC was definitely there and available to him?

Am I biased?  Perhaps.  I work at GameStop, for one.  My store seems to be one of the better ones and we try to warn people off things they might not want (Halo Wars, for example, when they don't want an RTS game), but we can't do everything.  I purchased a new copy of DA:O and later on traded it in to buy a used Collector's Edition.  The thing was in absolutely pristine condition, didn't even look like it had been more than opened and looked at.  It never even crossed my mind to expect that the codes would work, only to hope that they would.  I was quite happy to see that they did, for the record.  But in the end, I can't see this case as anything other than a general lack of common sense on the man's part, not some evil ploy to trick, ****** off, and ultimately alienate the consumer. 

There's also NO way GameStop would stop carrying DA:O and titles like it over this case.  We're going to be seeing more of this DLC model in the future if it looks like EA's Project $10 is working out, and GameStop would be cutting way out too much potential profit by refusing to carry recently released used titles with free DLC available to first-time purchasers.  If the claimant wins (and possibly even if he doesn't), I expect one/a combination of three things to happen: we'll get a list of games with leaflets to be removed and covers covers to be attacked with Sharpies, we'll have yet another obnoxious sticker to further ruin the game cases with, or there'll be a small sign up at the register that no one will read saying that DLC isn't guaranteed to be included in used games.  Perhaps we'll have to throw out perfectly good cases for games traded in without bonus content discs and make more ugly generic ones, too.  Hey, people LOVE those generic cases, right?  Right?

Seriously, out of all of GameStop's policies that people like to complain about online, he's choosing to sue over THIS one?

Modifié par Threxhi, 26 mars 2010 - 10:14 .

[Leyoril]

I cant blame either Bioware or EA for trying to make some money on the sale of used games. My local Game and Gamestation stores have racks full of secondhand games that are priced from £5 - £10 less than new for newly released games up to £20 less for older games. These racks always have more browsers than the new game shelves and there is many a time that i have heard someone ask the shop assistants to hold a certain game and contact them if it comes in in to them secondhand.

Every 3 secondhand games sold is a probable 2 sales that the publisher and developer does not get any profit from, I am assuming a 3 for 2 ratio as more games are likely to be sold as they are cheaper - pure guess though. More profit from game sales to the developers and publishers could go either one or two ways.

1- More resources ploughed into development and/or 2- making games cheaper to buy the games new.

[Shallina]

The real problem is that we are not allowed to sell software back with that DLC activation.

Is it really legal ? I mean why I'am not allowed to sell it back ?

When I sell my old car GM doesn't get a single $ from it.

When I buy something it's MINE !!!! It no longer belongs to EA or Bioware.

I bought the right to use the DLC, I should be allowed to sell it to someone else if I don't want it anymore.

Modifié par Shallina, 26 mars 2010 - 10:47 .

[Leyoril]

With software what you have "bought" is different from buying a car. What you have bought is the packaging, distribution media (DVD) and the right to use the software under conditions stipulated in the EULA. The actual software you do not really own.
The EULA says "The software is licensed to you not sold"

Modifié par Leyoril, 26 mars 2010 - 11:14 .

[Shallina]

Yup and I should be able to sell that to someone else. The Eula is not above the law.

And if what is in the EULA is against what the laws says, then the Eula as no value at all.

I'am yet to know that a law forbid to sell the right to use a software to someone else.

Modifié par Shallina, 26 mars 2010 - 11:47 .

[Leyoril]

They do allow the selling of the licence but not the access codes as they state below.



"Transfer. You may make a one-time permanent transfer of all your rights to install and use the Software to another individual or legal entity provided that: (a) the Technical Protection Measures used by the Software supports such transfers; ( you also transfer this License and all copies of the Software; © you retain no copies of the Software, upgrades, updates or prior versions; and (d) the receiving party accepts the terms and conditions of this License. Such transfer may not include access to any online feature, service or functionality, or right thereto, unlocked or downloadable content, dynamically served content and other online features and/or services that require registration with the enclosed access code, that are limited to one user account and/or that are otherwise non-transferable. EA may require that any end user of the Software register the Software online as a condition of use and/or purchase additional Licenses. NOTWITHSTANDING THE FOREGOING, YOU MAY NOT TRANSFER PRE-RELEASE COPIES OF THE SOFTWARE."

Modifié par Leyoril, 26 mars 2010 - 11:56 .

[Shallina]

And that restriction is probably illegal.

Modifié par Shallina, 26 mars 2010 - 12:01 .

[Leyoril]

Personaly I hope it would not be illegal, although I am afraid you could be correct. I like the idea of getting a thank you bonus for buying new, This is more apparent with ME2. They could have just waited a while after release and charged everybody for this content. Without it, it is still a viable and enjoyable game so would not have been missed.

[Matshelge]

Shallina wrote...

The real problem is that we are not allowed to sell software back with that DLC activation.

Is it really legal ? I mean why I'am not allowed to sell it back ?

When I sell my old car GM doesn't get a single $ from it.

When I buy something it's MINE !!!! It no longer belongs to EA or Bioware.

I bought the right to use the DLC, I should be allowed to sell it to someone else if I don't want it anymore.

You forget, cars need repair, and when you repair a GM car, you buy GM parts, from a GM plant, and GM makes money on this. GM makes money when you sell your old broken car.

And you need to read the licence agreement a bit more before you argue that you own something. You may own the disk you have, but the content, EA and BioWare still own. You are not allowed to copy it, modify it, or claim any sort of rights to the content on the disk, other then for personal use, just like music, books or movies.

As for EA's view om used games. I'm guessing it's worse then piracy. Atleast when pirates do what they do, they don't plan on buying the game anyway. Noone makes any money anywhere.
When people buy used games, they expect EA to support that game, despite EA not earning any money on that sale. Gamestop is making all the money, profitting on other people creation. For Gamedevelopers, that is no better then when people buy a burnt disk from a guy on a corner.

[Leyoril]

Thank you Matshelge, you explained what I meant better than I did.

[Shallina]

I own the right to use the software. And this is something that I'am allowed to sell back. Eula or not Eula.

Laws exist to protect consummers against commercials abuse. Don't spit on them. When i saw that DLC practice before release, I knew it will end on court.

We'll have to wait for the result now that the first round is about to start.

Modifié par Shallina, 26 mars 2010 - 12:36 .

[Crazy_Cat_Lady]

Matshelge wrote...

Shallina wrote...

The real problem is that we are not allowed to sell software back with that DLC activation.

Is it really legal ? I mean why I'am not allowed to sell it back ?

When I sell my old car GM doesn't get a single $ from it.

When I buy something it's MINE !!!! It no longer belongs to EA or Bioware.

I bought the right to use the DLC, I should be allowed to sell it to someone else if I don't want it anymore.

You forget, cars need repair, and when you repair a GM car, you buy GM parts, from a GM plant, and GM makes money on this. GM makes money when you sell your old broken car.

And you need to read the licence agreement a bit more before you argue that you own something. You may own the disk you have, but the content, EA and BioWare still own. You are not allowed to copy it, modify it, or claim any sort of rights to the content on the disk, other then for personal use, just like music, books or movies.

As for EA's view om used games. I'm guessing it's worse then piracy. Atleast when pirates do what they do, they don't plan on buying the game anyway. Noone makes any money anywhere.
When people buy used games, they expect EA to support that game, despite EA not earning any money on that sale. Gamestop is making all the money, profitting on other people creation. For Gamedevelopers, that is no better then when people buy a burnt disk from a guy on a corner.

It's different than buying a burnt disk, because you're buying the actual licensed product.  EA/Bioware already made their money on the original purchase.  Supporting the customer who buys the game used is no different than if the original owner had kept it and continued to play the game.  You're still supporting one person with a licensed copy of the game.

[Klimy]

I have no problem with GameStop, simply because they have prices allways much higher then any other place around. So I can't think of a reason why I should cross a road and buy a game for 10-15Euros less (if we talk about a new copy).

But once I did buy used copy of Dead Space from them. Price was low and I was well aware of DLC problem with used copies of games.



But a person who thinks of others I think GameStop makes a bit dirty business. Because no shelfs are marked as "Used games", there is no identification on the box itself that this is used. And there is no warning that free DLC migh cost money in this case. There is NO WAY the check if its used game or not (don't know how its in other countries, but in Sweden, you take a box without a disc, go to the counter and he takes another box from the shelf. The box you takes is just a box in order to make you feel like you "take" your game to the counter.

For person who is aware of all this, there is no problem to double check or just not to buy at all. But every time there are dosens of small kids or parents/grandparent who buy games as a present. They have no clue about any underwater stones with their purchase, damn, they can barely see a difference (if lucky) betwean XBox and PS. Think if you buy something to you kid and you think that this is best present ever, just to find out that you just half ruined a present because you bout samething that missing content promissed on the box.



So who gets the money is no a problem for consumer as long as consumer is willing to pay for it. But GameStop should inform and warn every person about possible problem when they purchase a used product, with proper identification that it is used.

[leeboi2]

I think since it says 'New buyers get DLC' and on the front in big letters it says 'PREOWNED' Its kinda obvious that someones gonna have used the code...

[Klimy]

leeboi2 wrote...

I think since it says 'New buyers get DLC' and on the front in big letters it says 'PREOWNED' Its kinda obvious that someones gonna have used the code...

Strange, never saw this in my life in Sweden. They dont mark games here, instead they place "SALE" tag on a box.

[Itkovian]

Ultimately it is a good practice. It funnels money away from the used-game retailers to the Publishers and Developers, who deserve to be rewarded for their work.

The gaming market, especially PC market, is not the music or movie industry, it cannot absorb well the losses to the used game market. It used to, but that was when the used game market were but a fraction of what it is now, what with retailers (Gamestop as the chief culprit) focusing so much of their effort on selling used games (for obvious reason, a used game sale is far more profitable).

Add that to the mounting cost of modern games, and the gaming industry needs to maximize its profit... not for the mere sake of profit, but for survival itself. With the money involved in making a game, all it takes is a single dud to ruin a dev studio, and in order to cover those losses studios and publishers must maximize profit from their successes.

Just remember, we're not talking about evil corporate tactics here. Even EA itself is struggling. Dev studios tend to have a short lifespan these days, and I for one prefer seeing those I like (Bioware, for example) make as much money as possible. If that means throttling the parasitic used games market, then so be it.

Itkovian

[Ildaron]

They normally have a used game shelf as well. Used shelf. I normally only pre-order and buy things new from them, but at times I look for a deal on a cheap pre-owned game from them as well.

[OhNineTeen]

I think Gamestop deserves it, and i hope they lose the lawsuit.

[Koralis]

Haexpane wrote...

This is an odd one, Gamestop didnt create the cover art for DAO so it's not their advertising. EA does not want any games sold as used to begin with.

Really the lawsuit should be between EA and GS

EA doesn't endorse used sales.  They have NO reason to cater to Gamestop's usage in their promotional material.  Gamestop COULD have added a sticker to the box that says "Does not come with DLC codes", but that would hurt their sales.

Suing Gamestop is exactly right.

[JaegerBane]

I don't have the slightest shred of sympathy for Gamestop. I've never liked how much the used game market is pushed in these game retailers (I used to work for a game retailer in the UK and it was ridiculous the level of bias we were supposed to show towards used games when making a sale).

Nice to see that particular profit margin getting slapped down.

[Eurypterid]

Shallina wrote...

I own the right to use the software. And this is something that I'am allowed to sell back. Eula or not Eula.

Thing is, you can. And you can include the DLC for the potential second-hand buyer of you want. But to do so you have to give them the e-mail/account you used to activate it. It's your choice.

[Crazy_Cat_Lady]

JaegerBane wrote...

I don't have the slightest shred of sympathy for Gamestop. I've never liked how much the used game market is pushed in these game retailers (I used to work for a game retailer in the UK and it was ridiculous the level of bias we were supposed to show towards used games when making a sale).

Nice to see that particular profit margin getting slapped down.

Is it ironic that Bioware made fun of this in Mass Effect 2?

[JosephShrike]

I just want to point out that the copyright law that is accepted by the majority of nations in the world doesn't allow you to resell someone's intellectual property as your own. It doesn't become yours when you buy it, you're just allowed to use it. A customer of a video game or movie has absolutely no right to ownership of that property in any way, shape, or form. Like, for example, if you buy a painting and then sell it, selling it under the pretense that you created it is actually illegal. Even incorporating something from an copyrighted work, like a Mass Effect RP board, is technically a violation without the express permission of the copyright owner. Of course, most companies allow that sort of thing because it keeps them in the minds of fans and benefits them, but that's something else.

Bottom line, just because you pay for something, doesn't mean it's yours to do with as you want. Dragon Age/Mass Effect 2 were released with the intent to be sold as original copies, and there's no legal standing for anyone to complain about buying a 'bad' second hand copy. At least not directed to the developer/publisher. GameStop might have an issue. But if you want to buy or sell used game copies, that's certainly your privilege, but it isn't, under any legal precedent or circumstance, your right.

Modifié par JosephShrike, 26 mars 2010 - 08:57 .

[ObserverStatus]