396 réponses à ce sujet

[Red Frostraven]

I believe in leading by example. In this case, Marjoleine did not return and there was nothing in the bio afterwards either.

[Sarah1281]

Marjolaine not returning is metagaming just like Zevran not attempting to finish the job later unless he doesn't like you when his old friend turns up. Besides, unless you die the epilogue doesn't address your companions (except Alistair if he's king and whoever your love interest is in that they stay with you) and Leliana goes to deal with the problem of Marjolaine's continued existance after the Blight is over.

[sirchet]

I think the biggest reason to keep Zev alive and in the party is, he's a blast!!



He has some of the wittiest one liners, heck ... just the dialog he gives while laying on the ground waiting to be executed for failing to assassinate you is priceless.

[Red Frostraven]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Marjolaine not returning is metagaming just like Zevran not attempting to finish the job later unless he doesn't like you when his old friend turns up. Besides, unless you die the epilogue doesn't address your companions (except Alistair if he's king and whoever your love interest is in that they stay with you) and Leliana goes to deal with the problem of Marjolaine's continued existance after the Blight is over.

She was my romance, and I didn't recall seeing her going after Marjolaine in the epilogue

She did not return, I did not expect her to -- and that was not metagaming the first time.

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 28 mars 2010 - 12:51 .

[Mlai00]

Well, Marjolaine would be a fool to return after she has been exposed the first time, and after Fereldan is stabilized with those in power all being the Warden's friends/allies. By the end, the Warden may even have the Fereldan Crow cells in his pocket, depending on in-game choices. Her only chance to come do her damage, was during the Blight and the instability occuring in Fereldan -- she could do whatever she pleased during that time. Now, she simply has to wait and watch for Leliana in Orlais.

I also note, to myself, that she cannot be tricked by Marjoleine no matter her approval, while Zevran WILL betray you if your approval is below 26.

Hmm... I have to get my approval with him below -26, then! I've been conquering areas left and right... time is running out! I've been too soft on him during chats!

Besides... how DO you cause collateral damage with swords, unless you kill people WITH women and children not only present, but locked into the same tight space as yourself and your target while fighting in the dark?

Considering that we're talking about Antivan nobles and merchants... they probably throw their own wives and children in front of the assassin, hoping it'll buy enough time for them to escape through their secret tunnels in the bedrooms.

[Sarah1281]

She was my romance, and I didn't recall seeing her going after Marjolaine in the epilogue

If she's your romance then she stays with you no matter what. If not, she'll do a numbr of things: leading the Chantry expedition to the Ashes, lead an expedition to the Deep Roads, go to Orlais to confront Marjolaine...and if you two travel together then who is to say you don't end up doing that anyway? Or maybe that's what she's doing while you're off being Warden-Commander in Awakenings.

Well, Marjolaine would be a fool to return after she has been exposed the first time, and after Fereldan is stabilized with those in power all being the Warden's friends/allies. By the end, the Warden may even have the Fereldan Crow cells in his pocket, depending on in-game choices. Her only chance to come do her damage, was during the Blight and the instability occuring in Fereldan -- she could do whatever she pleased during that time. Now, she simply has to wait and watch for Leliana in Orlais.

Yes but what's to stop her from, after Leliana bribes the attacker to find her, changing locations and trying again during the Blight? We have no reason to believe that she wouldn't attack us again and unless you metagame you can't be sure that you'll be safe. You can believe that she won't like you can believe Zevran truly wants to leave the Crows but you really don't know until much later.

[Volourn]

Poor little Zev is just misunderstoof. It's not his fualt. He was absued as achild. Poor little child absuers. They were abused as children. Poor little crim,inzals were cfriminalized. Bottom line is Zev is a scumbag murderer. This is undisputed fact.



And, all the silly insults don't chnage the fact.



Morrigan, Lel, Sten, Dog, Oghren, et al couild ALL be scuimbag murderers; but none of it would change the fact that zev is a scumbag murderer.



Capiche?

[Efesell]

And yet still awesome.

So it's all good.

[Ceridraen]

Murder is fact (in the factoid, gaming version of the word)

Scumbag is opinion.



In your fantasy world, Zevran is bad, etc. In mine, he's my best friend.



And he's got great hair.

[sylvanaerie]

Ceridraen wrote...

Murder is fact (in the factoid, gaming version of the word)
Scumbag is opinion.

In your fantasy world, Zevran is bad, etc. In mine, he's my best friend.

And he's got great hair.

And great hands  Personally I think its what Ejoslin posted that they just don't want to admit they want tent time with him.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 28 mars 2010 - 01:10 .

[Red Frostraven]

Marjolaine never attacked us (she hired some oddly level-adjusted thugs to do it for her), and at the least to me, the Marjolaine sequence felt like interrupting a sadistic kid pulling the legs off crickets, for then to give her a royal spanking and a moral speech, and then send her way out in the world without her pants.

She promised she would try again, but... I didn't believe her, and neither did Leliana.

She's left completely without a motive when confronted by Leliana and put to shame like that -- and has much more to lose by trying again than by letting it go.

In any case, if she'd try a second time, it would be her life.

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 28 mars 2010 - 01:17 .

[Ceridraen]

I got the feeling that M was insanely controlling, & that her real motivation wasn't fear of a vengeful Leliana, but a desire for 'ultimate control' over her former lover/minion. Therefore, letting her go serves no purpose. (I let her go by mistake, too, the first time - but her smugness required death.) I took Leliana's story to mean that Marj had used emotional manipulation during their relationship - then when Leli questioned her, she tightened the noose, so to speak. I wish they'd done a little more about Leliana & trust, in response to this, but I guess she's just a trusting soul by nature.

[Mlai00]

Yeah, "scumbag" is pure opinion.

This is Fereldan, a fantasy version of medieval Europe. Where the prevailing system of justice is more like a lynch mob + confession under torture + who has more followers and pitchforks. It's not 2010 USA or whatever.

I can understand killing Zev for RP purposes, because he is deemed dangerous, or because you want different Achievements (I wonder if there's one for Companion Slayer...).

But to gripe about it because you gimped yourself gameplay-wise, or because of a moral high horse... c'mon buddy.

[Sarah1281]

Marjolaine never attacked us (she hired some oddly level-adjusted thugs to do it for her),

I still don't understand how it's okay for people to hire someone else to kill you if they do not physically participate. We never saw Howe himself during the attack on Cousland castle, for instance, and considering that he wouldn't want to succeed in taking over Highever if he'd die in the process, I can easily see him having his men do the deed while he waited outside. Would that mean if you were playing as a human noble you wouldn't want him dead until he attacked you when you were looking to free Anora?



Since you never fought Marjolaine she doesn't know that you can kill her (and if you do fight her she finds the very idea laughable) and has absolutely no reason not to try again. Leliana saying 'stop bothering me I'm not obsessed with you' is not a compelling reason to drop her obsession with Leliana that brought her all the way to Ferelden and caused her to spy on Leliana's Chantry life for two years.

[sylvanaerie]

Red Frostraven wrote...

Marjolaine never attacked us (she hired some oddly level-adjusted thugs to do it for her), and at the least to me, the Marjolaine sequence felt like interrupting a sadistic kid pulling the legs off crickets, for then to give her a royal spanking and a moral speech, and then send her way out in the world without her pants.

She promised she would try again, but... I didn't believe her, and neither did Leliana.

She's left completely without a motive when confronted by Leliana and put to shame like that -- and has much more to lose by trying again than by letting it go.

In any case, if she'd try a second time, it would be her life.

She even tells you "This isn't over" when she leaves, that Leli is too dangerous to let live. To expect there wouldn't continue to be attempts on Leliana's and the PC's life is just stupid (by your own reasoning)  Your arguments are full of contradictions.  Are you trying to say "Leli good Zevran bad?" The train of your reasoning has become derailed I think.

[Red Frostraven]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Marjolaine never attacked us (she hired some oddly level-adjusted thugs to do it for her),

I still don't understand how it's okay for people to hire someone else to kill you if they do not physically participate. We never saw Howe himself during the attack on Cousland castle, for instance, and considering that he wouldn't want to succeed in taking over Highever if he'd die in the process, I can easily see him having his men do the deed while he waited outside. Would that mean if you were playing as a human noble you wouldn't want him dead until he attacked you when you were looking to free Anora?

Captured, to be sure. Killed? No.
I wouldn't mind to see him being killed while resisting capture, though.
Besides, his crimes reach far beyond the battle at the human noble estate, and he'd stay in the prisons for a long time and lose all priviledges.

But this is far off topic.

sylvanaerie wrote...
She even tells you "This isn't over"
when she leaves, that Leli is too dangerous to let live. To expect
there wouldn't continue to be attempts on Leliana's and the PC's life
is just stupid (by your own reasoning)  Your arguments are full of
contradictions.

No, it's not stupid by my own reasoning to expect Marjolaine to not bother us again after being given a very cold shower and humiliated. If anything, I'd be worried if she DIDN'T tell us she would try again, because she's a deceptive lying wench. When she told us she would get us -- I felt like that was her way of saying she never wanted to see nor hear about us ever again.
If she tries again, it is her life, and I feel we made that point across to her.
I'm only a tad disappointed that we couldn't capture her and cage her for some time...

And feel free to point out any contradictions in my reasoning.
Unless you can, please let's head back on topic.

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 28 mars 2010 - 01:43 .

[Sarah1281]

So would it be a good idea then to not simply let Marjorlaine go but capture her? Turn her over to the guards as an Orlesian Bard and she'd be locked up for some time under Loghain.

[Ceridraen]

sylvanaerie wrote...


And great hands  Personally I think its what Ejoslin posted that they just don't want to admit they want tent time with him.

Oh! I noticed his hands, too! 

[Ceridraen]

Mlai00 wrote...

Yeah, "scumbag" is pure opinion.
This is Fereldan, a fantasy version of medieval Europe. Where the prevailing system of justice is more like a lynch mob + confession under torture + who has more followers and pitchforks. It's not 2010 USA or whatever.
I can understand killing Zev for RP purposes, because he is deemed dangerous, or because you want different Achievements (I wonder if there's one for Companion Slayer...).
But to gripe about it because you gimped yourself gameplay-wise, or because of a moral high horse... c'mon buddy.

Ok - if there isn't a 'companion slayer' achievement, there should be. Murdering Madman! When I do an 'alternate, evil me' save (which sadly, I don't usually keep) - that's it.   Prices too high? Die, merchant!  Sadly, it would have to go with getting to the last battle in Denerim & have me standing there alone - then the Citizens hire the AD to take me out, one on one. 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Volourn wrote...

Morrigan, Lel, Sten, Dog, Oghren, et al couild ALL be scuimbag murderers; but none of it would change the fact that zev is a scumbag murderer.

Capiche?

 

Yes, they are all scumbag murderers, and thus, have no business in your party. Since you killed that scumbag murderer Zevran because he is a scumbag murderer, then of course, you did the same with all the other scumbag murderers in your party. Because fair is fair.

Capiche?

[Red Frostraven]

Sarah1281 wrote...

So would it be a good idea then to not simply let Marjorlaine go but capture her? Turn her over to the guards as an Orlesian Bard and she'd be locked up for some time under Loghain.

There was no such option, and I can't hold hostile NPCs responsible for shortcomings in the scripting.

[Volourn]

"Yes, they are all scumbag murderers, and thus, have no business in your party. Since you killed that scumbag murderer Zevran because he is a scumbag murderer, then of course, you did the same with all the other scumbag murderers in your party. Because fair is fair.



Capiche?"



Zev is a scumbag murderer. You admit it. Game over.

[Sarah1281]

Sadly, it would have to go with getting to the last battle in Denerim & have me standing there alone - then the Citizens hire the AD to take me out, one on one.

On the bright side, that would probably mean you could skip that stupid 'hold the gate' interlude.

No, it's not stupid by my own reasoning to expect Marjolaine to not bother us again after being given a very cold shower and humiliated.

How exactly is she humiliated? She reveals part of shy she's doing this to Leliana (she's a loose end in Marjorlaine's treason) and Leliana claims she doesn't want vengeance and asks Marjorlaine to go away despite the lengths Marjorlaine clearly had to go through in order to keep tabs on her. That sounds weak and ineffectual on Leliana's part, not particularly humiliating and why if she's not romanced she goes and actually settles things with Marjorlaine after the Blight.

[Ceridraen]

And now, the poster goes to Disney. To the victor goes an endless looping of, "It's a Small World... after all!" (btw? the little boat? it's stuck & you're trapped there for...ever...)

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Volourn wrote...

"Yes, they are all scumbag murderers, and thus, have no business in your party. Since you killed that scumbag murderer Zevran because he is a scumbag murderer, then of course, you did the same with all the other scumbag murderers in your party. Because fair is fair.

Capiche?"

Zev is a scumbag murderer. You admit it. Game over.

You didn't answer my question. Did you rid the party of all the other scumbag murderers as well? I'm guessing you did, because you aren't a hypocrite, are you?