396 réponses à ce sujet

[Red Frostraven]

One must remember that the ONLY reason Zevran allegedly was suicidal was because he realized that his ex-girlfriend didn't try to save the life of the innocent person the three of them were going to murder.
... thus she wasn't innocent of an assassination attempt on someone's life, but in fact still a scumbag murderer.

and... zevran is sad because he mistook her for someone intercepting an assassination attempt on someone's life, and killed her like he would kill someone innocent standing in his way.
Then he got heartbroken whe he learned that she in fact WAS going to help them kill the innocent target and whoever stood in their way.

... ugh...

I'm a bit harsh here, but isn't all this true?
He killed his girlfriend BECAUSE he believed SHE was going to try to save the life of their target -- because he believed she was not in fact a scumbag murderer.

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 28 mars 2010 - 08:35 .

[Sarah1281]

One must remember that the ONLY reason Zevran allegedly was suicidal was because he realized that his ex-girlfriend didn't try to save the life of the innocent person the three of them were going to murder.

Not true. We know that he had her killed because he thought she was working for their target. Not trying to save his life because he was innocent (we have no reason to believe that he was) but was in his employ. I doubt the Crows go after many innocent people, not because they have standards, mind you, but because there is no point in assassinating those that don't have power and in order to get power in Antiva (which seems to be similar enough to Orzammar in this regard) you can't be innocent.

[Red Frostraven]

So we have reason to believe his mark *deserved* assassination?

...

In any case, that doesn't change the fact that he killed her because he believed she was going to try to stop their attempt of coldblooded murder.

[Addai]

Don't bother trying to explain. It's Wynne typing behind the keyboard, remember.

[Sarah1281]

There's a difference between 'deserving' death and 'being innocent.'

[Red Frostraven]

Well... by innocent, I kind of ment "someone who doesn't deserve to get a nightly visit from three burglars cutting his throath in the middle of the night while he's asleep and unable to defend himself, possibly losing his wife or children as collateral damage".

... because very, very few people have commited crimes that warrant that kind of treatment... which makes whoever tries to stop them from completing an assassination kind of... the good guy or girl...

but... his girlfriend wasn't that good girl, which is why he regret killing her. He didn't regret killing her, he only regret killing her BECAUSE she wasn't good-hearted after all.

Addai67 wrote...
Don't bother trying to explain. It's Wynne typing behind the keyboard, remember.

Sure, and you lot are all Dogs -- in the sense that you're loyal and forgiving beyond all fathomable reason to any character you might bond to.

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 28 mars 2010 - 10:45 .

[Addai]

As has been pointed out elsewhere, if this is your criteria, I expect you have no one in your camp but Wynne, Alistair and Dog. Have fun with that.

[Feraele]

Barbarossa wrote...

    I just wanted to say that I feel somewhat cheated by the fact that both of the rogues(Leliana and Zevran) in my storyline have to die.  I could not let Zevran live after trying to kill my character.  Now I am at the urn of sacred ashes and have explored all of my options trying to keep Leliana and doing the right thing of defiling the ashes of andraste and thus destroying part of the idiotic monotheistic religion that the people of Fereldan follow.  Alas, it looks as if I must finish the game without a rogue to unlock chests and disable traps if I want to feel like I have made the story my own.

    I feel shorted because of this fact:  I get two rogues to choose from, but both of them have serious flaws that make them unusable for me, but I get 4 warriors to choose from.  I understand that warrriors have a slightly more varied use as they can be ranged, dps, or tanks.  Seriously though Zevran and Leliana?  I am on my first playthrough, so I don't really know that Zevran would be an uninteresting companion, but he tried to kill my character!  Alright, done ranting. 

P.S.  Great soundtrack, I can think of only one rpg that had a soundtrack I enjoyed as much and that came out almost a decade ago; the third elder scrolls game.

"the right thing is not destroying the ashes" ..but don't let me hold you back.  And of course if Leil is with you..and you destroy the ashes, she's not gonna like you too much for it.....so,  yeah.   You've created your own situation there...but anyhoo...have fun.

[Red Frostraven]

Addai67 wrote...

As has been pointed out elsewhere, if this is your criteria, I expect you have no one in your camp but Wynne, Alistair and Dog. Have fun with that.

Well, have fun with your black and white world, too.

Most characters are in shades of gray, but Zevran is friggin black.

[Feraele]

Janni-in-VA wrote...

I can certainly understand making a certain set of decisions for role-playing reasons. However, some of the other posters are making valid points when they remind the OP that actions have consequences. I have a hard time seeing things in black and white, anyway. I will say that my various characters have handled Zevran differently. My DNF killed him without so much as a flicker of an eyelash. Everyone else has let him live, for various reasons. Some have felt that he had a right to try to redeem himself. Others thought he might be useful. Some have left him in camp for most of the rest of the game. A couple have made a valuable companion out of him, and one of those is working her way into a romance with him. I have yet to defile the Ashes, but I'll make sure I don't take Leliana with me if/when I do. Hmmm, that means I'll have to train up Zevran's lockpicking skills.
One thing to remember about Kolgrim and the people of Haven is that they are a dragon cult. They drink dragon blood, which makes them more aggressive, among other things. Now, why the high dragon would have thought to present herself as Andraste and then ask them to defile the Sacred Ashes is beyond me. And, there's not enough information in the Codices and the lore on draconic intelligence. We really don't know just how intelligent high dragons are, so this could be some delusion that Kolgrim came up with on his own.
It's worth noting that even if you don't defile the Ashes and Brother Genitivi tells the world that they're found, the Ashes suddenly disappear. The Chantry officially makes an announcement that they weren't found after all. You get this information on one of the Epilogue cards. Personally, I think they pulled a Vatican and spirited them away to a vault somewhere, but that's just me.
And, it is important to understand the difference between theory and belief. If you want to believe that various NPCs are cold-blooded murderers, that's your right. But, a theory is a statement which is generally accepted to be true (such as the Theory of General Relativity or the Theory of Evolution) by either process of elimination (Occam's Razor) or by a generally accepted line of reasoning. Theories, however, are NOT proven hypotheses, which require empirical data and repeatable experiments.
I'm not sure where exactly I'm going with all this, just wanted to offer up a thought or two on the subject.  

Its a delusion Kolgrim's grandfather came up with.. "the born again Andraste".   If you listen to what the Guardian in the Temple says, he explains how these were originally the Disciples of Andraste, not a dragon cult,  but they have lost their way, and that is due to Kolgrim's grandfather..preaching a different belief...that Andraste was risen as a dragon.

It wasn't true, and the Guardian states that..the dragon IS NOT Andraste.   The high dragon is just a high dragon,  she tolerates Kolgrim's people..for whatever reason.  

[Cuddlezarro]

Red Frostraven wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

As has been pointed out elsewhere, if this is your criteria, I expect you have no one in your camp but Wynne, Alistair and Dog. Have fun with that.

Well, have fun with your black and white world, too.

Most characters are in shades of gray, but Zevran is friggin black.

yes Zevran is compoletly black despite the fact he disappoves of you murdering entire groups of people for no reason and also does not like the idea of selling people into slavery

he certainly isnt "white" but he certainly isnt "black" either

[Red Frostraven]

Who is the guardian, and why should we take his word?

I know where to find him, but that does NOT answer the question of "who he is" nor why we should believe him when he sais the high dragon is not carrying andraste's soul or spirit.

Me, personally, don't believe the high dragon is anything but fire-farting lizard like the rest of the bunch.
But "because an ingame NPC told us so" does not mean what he told us is canon.

yes Zevran is compoletly black despite the fact he disappoves of you
murdering entire groups of people for no reason and also does not like
the idea of selling people into slavery

he certainly isnt "white" but he certainly isnt "black" either

Assuming everyone is a shade of gray, only morrigan has any chance of being less white.

He opposes killing entire groups of ELVES, you mean, and he oppose the ELVEN slavery you mean: He wants you to enslave MORE dwarves in golems and use them for the battle.
Other than those two cases, and him not liking if you annull the mage tower... I believe most every other morally ambiguous to downright cruel choice is fine by him.

...

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 28 mars 2010 - 11:53 .

[HaloKT]

It's not really blck and white.



- Leliana: An Orlesian spy/assassin. Morally the same level as Zevran.

- Oghren: A drunkard who has killed a defenceless opponent in the Proving, and still thinks that the fights in the Proving should be lethal.

- Sten: A massive qunari who has murdered an entire household including children. Sentenced to death for his crimes, and yet you free him?

- Morrigan: While most of her killing in the past was defence against templars, she does have a slightly "different" view on how to deal with people. In general, Morrigan regards all human life save her own as worthless and expendable. If someone isn't able to defend himself, he deserves to die. If someone shows compassion, it's lack of intelligence for her. Not quite the person you'd like to hang around with as a goody-two-shoes.

- Shale: Extremely bitter and doesn't show any sign of respect for organic life at all. Is known to have killed already, and from her words is likely to do so again.



The NPCs' backstories do not leave much leeway. They're all criminals, except for Alistair, Wynne and Dog (who loves you no matter what you do). From what I read, the only difference you make is not that Zevran is an assassin, but that he has tried to kill you. All of your companions have had their experience in killing people for money, or out of sheer bloodrage.

[ejoslin]

According to the toolset, Zevran was a slave, and he jumped at the first chance of leaving the crows that he had. So that is the basis of the character. 

Modifié par ejoslin, 28 mars 2010 - 11:51 .

[Varenus Luckmann]

HaloKT wrote...
[...]

- Leliana: An Orlesian spy/assassin. Morally the same level as Zevran.

[...]

I'd like to raise my voice in defense of Leliana, here. An important difference between Zevran and Leliana is that Leliana never was an actual assassin and that she actually dislikes the act of killing.

Unless you harden her, but that's another point entirely.

[Varenus Luckmann]

ejoslin wrote...
According to the toolset, Zevran was a slave, and he jumped at the first chance of leaving the crows that he had. So that is the basis of the character. 

Toolset? He outright tells you this.

[mousestalker]

Red Frostraven wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

As has been pointed out elsewhere, if this is your criteria, I expect you have no one in your camp but Wynne, Alistair and Dog. Have fun with that.

Well, have fun with your black and white world, too.

Most characters are in shades of gray, but Zevran is friggin black.

You may be having trouble with your graphics card. Zevran is a blond with a tan/brown complexion. If he's showing as black either your settings are incorrect or your card is going bad. It may be worth looking into.

[Varenus Luckmann]

You are now imagening what Zevran would be like if he was a ******.

Modifié par Varenus Luckmann, 29 mars 2010 - 12:08 .

[sylvanaerie]

mousestalker wrote...

Red Frostraven wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

As has been pointed out elsewhere, if this is your criteria, I expect you have no one in your camp but Wynne, Alistair and Dog. Have fun with that.

Well, have fun with your black and white world, too.

Most characters are in shades of gray, but Zevran is friggin black.

You may be having trouble with your graphics card. Zevran is a blond with a tan/brown complexion. If he's showing as black either your settings are incorrect or your card is going bad. It may be worth looking into.

ROFLMAO

[ejoslin]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
According to the toolset, Zevran was a slave, and he jumped at the first chance of leaving the crows that he had. So that is the basis of the character. 

Toolset? He outright tells you this.

Of course he does.  But people are arguing that.

Edit: And a point against Leliana -- she chose to be an assassin.  Even she admits she and Zevran have very similar pasts.  But he was a slave, tortured as a child, facing certain horrifying death if he leaves, and STILL given a chance, he leaves.

Modifié par ejoslin, 29 mars 2010 - 12:14 .

[Addai]

Red Frostraven wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

As has been pointed out elsewhere, if this is your criteria, I expect you have no one in your camp but Wynne, Alistair and Dog. Have fun with that.

Well, have fun with your black and white world, too.

Most characters are in shades of gray, but Zevran is friggin black.

Heh, well since you're the one who said Sten is as loyal as the sky is blue, forgive me for doubting your judgment of the NPCs' character.

Just like Wynne, your only criteria seems to be that an NPC grovel sufficiently to your taste and spout enough platitudes, not what they've done or aspire to do, she is clueless in her judgments, but won't be moved from them.

In fact, I might be giving Wynne an unfair shake in this comparison.  She at least does not follow through on her sanctimony by killing a man asking for clemency.

[Varenus Luckmann]

ejoslin wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
According to the toolset, Zevran was a slave, and he jumped at the first chance of leaving the crows that he had. So that is the basis of the character. 

Toolset? He outright tells you this.

Of course he does.  But people are arguing that.

Edit: And a point against Leliana -- she chose to be an assassin.  Even she admits she and Zevran have very similar pasts.  But he was a slave, tortured as a child, facing certain horrifying death if he leaves, and STILL given a chance, he leaves.

I never saw Leliana even mentioned as an assassin. Quite the opposite, even. She has murdered, yes, but that doesn't make you an assassin. From everything I've seen on Leliana so far, everything suggests that she only killed when she absolutely had to and hated doing it. A spy does not an assassin make.

Mind you, I haven't played through the game with a hardened Leliana.

[Varenus Luckmann]

mousestalker wrote...

Red Frostraven wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
As has been pointed out elsewhere, if this is your criteria, I expect you have no one in your camp but Wynne, Alistair and Dog. Have fun with that.

Well, have fun with your black and white world, too.

Most characters are in shades of gray, but Zevran is friggin black.

You may be having trouble with your graphics card. Zevran is a blond with a tan/brown complexion. If he's showing as black either your settings are incorrect or your card is going bad. It may be worth looking into.

Wat?!

Are you saying that Zevran doesn't look like this for the rest of you?! 

[ejoslin]

Are you saying he looks like that to you?

Edit: This thread has taken a very promising, silly turn!

Modifié par ejoslin, 29 mars 2010 - 12:24 .

[sylvanaerie]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
According to the toolset, Zevran was a slave, and he jumped at the first chance of leaving the crows that he had. So that is the basis of the character. 

Toolset? He outright tells you this.

Of course he does.  But people are arguing that.

Edit: And a point against Leliana -- she chose to be an assassin.  Even she admits she and Zevran have very similar pasts.  But he was a slave, tortured as a child, facing certain horrifying death if he leaves, and STILL given a chance, he leaves.

I never saw Leliana even mentioned as an assassin. Quite the opposite, even. She has murdered, yes, but that doesn't make you an assassin. From everything I've seen on Leliana so far, everything suggests that she only killed when she absolutely had to and hated doing it. A spy does not an assassin make.

Mind you, I haven't played through the game with a hardened Leliana.

Hardened or not she will tell you bards are trained as spies and assassins. The thing that got her in trouble was Marjolaine sent her to kill a man and take some papers (which proved Marj was a traitor) from him.  She didn't know him but she killed him, took the papers and looked at them.  When she saw what it was she went back to Marj and told her she was afraid her mentor/lover would be in danger for these dealings. Marj then betrayed Leli by turning her in to the Orlesian guards for torture and a traitor's death.  

So yes she tells you she was an assassin in her old life.

@ Ejoslin

I wouldn't mind more pics of Zev. He's quite easy on the eyes.  Though Red seems to be having trouble with his video card.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 29 mars 2010 - 12:27 .