396 réponses à ce sujet

[Bryy_Miller]

Addai67 wrote...

Choices have consequences.

Exactly. You are upset that you... what are you upset with exactly? That you're playing the game? 

[Ceridraen]

Um - wait, doesn't Morrigan say or broadly imply that she followed, however reluctantly, in Flemeth's footsteps, as far as 'using them til they're spent, then killing them?' Zevran's murderousness seems among the least offensive, really, in that it wasn't a choice, & despite his miserable childhood, he's still cheerful, has a certain perspective, & is actually quite a good person. He basically says, in a religious dialogue with Alistair, that he's come to terms with it, he's made his peace 'with the Maker,' & maybe Alistair should focus on his own problems. (which Alistair accepts nicely.)



I found Zevran's assassin credentials more sympathetic than Leliana's, in that she chose her life, & tries to pretty/soften it up by the cute girl/ 'but I believe!' thing. Either way, there aren't many companions who haven't had some murderous element. Alistair kills Loghain (not without reason) but it would have been more 'typical' for him to finally show mercy rather than slice off the guy's head in front of his daughter. (I'm not against that, but it has to count as a non-self defense killing) Oghren killed someone in a fight that was supposed to be to 'first blood.' Sten had a hissy fit over his sword & killed a family. (I sold his sword later, & he didn't react.) That's probably the least sympathetic of all the killings, imo.



Also, the Crows give us that great guy Ignacio, who will endear me to assassins ever after.

[Barbarossa]

Wow, this turned into a fun thread.



To Casedawgz: Religion is crazy in general and polytheism is superior to monotheism IF religion is necessary as it does not cause the same sort of fanaticism (this is really just an opinion as I have no factual evidence, just my historical observations) that will lead to an overthrow of the supreme authority.



As for calling Zevran a scumbag murderer, he is a tool of the real murderer. He could not live though, because one must think about their own survival first and the man tried to kill you. He easily could decide later after letting him survive that he might try to find a new boss and kill you in your sleep or poison your food, which he is more than capable of and getting away.



I don't know Sten well and originally I was going to let him be darkspawn food and leave him in that cage. After talking to him fully though I learned that he was hiding something and that he seemed of strong honourable character, so I brought him along.



Shale is the one character that I can't make any hypothesis on. As a golem I imagined it would be emotionless and empirical. It seems now to me that she is of noble character and rightfully holds a grudge against humans in general. I could not fear Shale killing me in my secretly though as it makes too much noise and its character is such that it would not use poison as seems to enjoy the experience of killing.



On wynne's abilities; I understand she is a healer, which is where I have put much of Barbarossa's talent points.



Leliana is just a weak person and Morrigan is really reasonable. Morrigan's only character flaws seem to be her love of shiny things and her hate for the circle of magi. I agree on the circle, but most of my anger is towards the chantry for holding so much sway over the circle and what appear to be 'book-burning' tactics.



As for defiling Andraste's grave; I see nothing evil about the act or the end. It promises that the Chantry will not gain any more power through it (the fanaticism of the mob). There is also the hope of dissolving some of the Chantry's power.



I smiled at the idea of letting the dragon live and not defiling the ashes, but the consequences of that could be terrible. Think medieval dragon slayer tales. People would become fanatical about this and spend hundreds of lives trying to kill it for really no reason whatsoever, but to view a piece of pottery. Many children would then make it their goal of protecting the Chantry's relic or saving it from the dragon. This seems like a horrible idea if your goal is at all to create a better world.



I'd really be surprised if anyone reads this whole thing

[sylvanaerie]

Barbarossa wrote...

Wow, this turned into a fun thread.

To Casedawgz: Religion is crazy in general and polytheism is superior to monotheism IF religion is necessary as it does not cause the same sort of fanaticism (this is really just an opinion as I have no factual evidence, just my historical observations) that will lead to an overthrow of the supreme authority.

As for calling Zevran a scumbag murderer, he is a tool of the real murderer. He could not live though, because one must think about their own survival first and the man tried to kill you. He easily could decide later after letting him survive that he might try to find a new boss and kill you in your sleep or poison your food, which he is more than capable of and getting away.

I don't know Sten well and originally I was going to let him be darkspawn food and leave him in that cage. After talking to him fully though I learned that he was hiding something and that he seemed of strong honourable character, so I brought him along.

Shale is the one character that I can't make any hypothesis on. As a golem I imagined it would be emotionless and empirical. It seems now to me that she is of noble character and rightfully holds a grudge against humans in general. I could not fear Shale killing me in my secretly though as it makes too much noise and its character is such that it would not use poison as seems to enjoy the experience of killing.

On wynne's abilities; I understand she is a healer, which is where I have put much of Barbarossa's talent points.

Leliana is just a weak person and Morrigan is really reasonable. Morrigan's only character flaws seem to be her love of shiny things and her hate for the circle of magi. I agree on the circle, but most of my anger is towards the chantry for holding so much sway over the circle and what appear to be 'book-burning' tactics.

As for defiling Andraste's grave; I see nothing evil about the act or the end. It promises that the Chantry will not gain any more power through it (the fanaticism of the mob). There is also the hope of dissolving some of the Chantry's power.

I smiled at the idea of letting the dragon live and not defiling the ashes, but the consequences of that could be terrible. Think medieval dragon slayer tales. People would become fanatical about this and spend hundreds of lives trying to kill it for really no reason whatsoever, but to view a piece of pottery. Many children would then make it their goal of protecting the Chantry's relic or saving it from the dragon. This seems like a horrible idea if your goal is at all to create a better world.

I'd really be surprised if anyone reads this whole thing

LOL Actually I did read it all   May I just point out that up to now no one had found Andraste's ashes. The Chantry doesn't change in power because they are found (or if they are never found).  And if Brother Genitivi never learns of where they are for certain nothing ever comes of it.  The cultists however are a proven bad guy.  Obviously doing what Kolgrim (who seems to have a very faint grasp of reality) wants is not in the category  of "good thing to do".

Regardless of your PC's feelings about the Chantry, does that mean defiling Andraste's final resting place is a good thing?  She wasn't the chantry. She helped a lot of people freed slaves from the grip of the Tevinter blood magisters and changed a lot of lives for the better.  She was a good person by all accounts.  I just could never justify doing something like that for my own PC's.  For me its not "the right thing to do" for any reason.

To me it would be like digging up Joan of Arc or George Washington and peeing on their bones.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 26 mars 2010 - 03:50 .

[Barbarossa]

I must point out again that I killed Kolgrim, because he was a fanatic and also because he could've become powerful as he had followers.

Joan of Arc is a good correlation, really good. Andraste is relevant to my character though and Joan of Arc is irrelevant to me. In my mind peeing on the bones of Joan of Arc means nothing, but doing such to Andraste's remains dissolves the power of the temple in which she is held and the power that the Maker may gain over pilgrims, people that would do better to spend their time on productive tasks.

It has nothing to do with directly hurting the Chantry either, just not allowing them to gain even more power through a discovered relic and a new realization of the Maker(who supposedly had abandoned Fereldan). An analogy would be preventing polio would make more sense than curing it one by one.

Edit:  Just wanted to add that history is written by the victors.  It is impossible to know whether or not Andraste was fighting for a just cause or even a reasonable one.  It is also irrelevant in the present, but in the present we can fight for reason.  Hope that makes sense...

Modifié par Barbarossa, 26 mars 2010 - 04:12 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Barbarossa wrote...

    I just wanted to say that I feel somewhat cheated by the fact that both of the rogues(Leliana and Zevran) in my storyline have to die.  I could not let Zevran live after trying to kill my character.  Now I am at the urn of sacred ashes and have explored all of my options trying to keep Leliana and doing the right thing of defiling the ashes of andraste and thus destroying part of the idiotic monotheistic religion that the people of Fereldan follow.  Alas, it looks as if I must finish the game without a rogue to unlock chests and disable traps if I want to feel like I have made the story my own.

    I feel shorted because of this fact:  I get two rogues to choose from, but both of them have serious flaws that make them unusable for me, but I get 4 warriors to choose from.  I understand that warrriors have a slightly more varied use as they can be ranged, dps, or tanks.  Seriously though Zevran and Leliana?  I am on my first playthrough, so I don't really know that Zevran would be an uninteresting companion, but he tried to kill my character!  Alright, done ranting. 

P.S.  Great soundtrack, I can think of only one rpg that had a soundtrack I enjoyed as much and that came out almost a decade ago; the third elder scrolls game.

Wait... What? Just how is defiling the ashes the "right thing to do"? The one and only "proof" that something divine might be going on. And the right thing is to defile it? Just because an institution has abused a set of beliefs does not make it right to desecrate a sacred artifact... You do realize you could just have held the location of the artifact as a secret for yourself right?

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 26 mars 2010 - 04:22 .

[sylvanaerie]

Barbarossa wrote...

I must point out again that I killed Kolgrim, because he was a fanatic and also because he could've become powerful as he had followers.

Joan of Arc is a good correlation, really good. Andraste is relevant to my character though and Joan of Arc is irrelevant to me. In my mind peeing on the bones of Joan of Arc means nothing, but doing such to Andraste's remains dissolves the power of the temple in which she is held and the power that the Maker may gain over pilgrims, people that would do better to spend their time on productive tasks.

It has nothing to do with directly hurting the Chantry either, just not allowing them to gain even more power through a discovered relic and a new realization of the Maker(who supposedly had abandoned Fereldan). An analogy would be preventing polio would make more sense than curing it one by one.

Edit:  Just wanted to add that history is written by the victors.  It is impossible to know whether or not Andraste was fighting for a just cause or even a reasonable one.  It is also irrelevant in the present, but in the present we can fight for reason.  Hope that makes sense...

Maybe I am just getting tired...but yea it was hard to make sense out of your post.  Or maybe you missed what I was trying to say.  Basically you didn't have to defile the ashes. Nothing would have come of it if you just killed Kolgrim and left them after getting your pinch to cure Eamon. It doesn't change anyone else's lives outside of your own and I suppose Eamon's since he will live now.  Pilgrims only come if you let Brother Genitivi spill the beans on the temple's location as being the Urn's resting place.  If you send him away (or kill him, that is an option too) no one ever learns its there. Hence your original posting concern of losing the only living rogue you had in your party could have been avoided.  It seemed to me there were other choices but you didn't see them.  I was simply pointing out there were other ways to get what you wanted without antagonizing your only living lockpicker/trapfinder. 

[Fishy]

I never understood this.You want to defile the ashes because you hate religion .. But it's only a selfish act .

It's would be like pooping on Jesus tomb because you hate the pope!!!Let's me tell you that even the non-believer would be pissed at you.Since it's a historical artefact and could explain a lot.

I'm the kind of ppl that respect the choice of other.Who i am to judge someone choice?Leliana's right to be pissed at you because what you do it's stupid and direspectful.You hate the chantry but you help a bunch of fanatic that worship a dragon.. Hypocrite!!!

-I defiled a sacred relic for millions of people ... I'M SO COOOOOOOOOOOOL

I defiled the ashes once and just felt guilty and stupid and reloaded . What's the point of this?I just don't get it.I hate religion myself but i'm enough of a man to respect important thing for other individual.

I don't care about your mom .. But i won't insult her

Modifié par Suprez30, 26 mars 2010 - 04:39 .

[JosieJ]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wait... What? Just how is defiling the ashes the "right thing to do"? The one and only "proof" that something divine might be going on. And the right thing is to defile it? Just because an institution has abused a set of beliefs does not make it right to desecrate a sacred artifact... You do realize you could just have held the location of the artifact as a secret for yourself right?

When it comes to belief, "the right thing" is highly subjective.  Barbarossa clearly thinks it's the right thing to do to defile the ashes.  Leliana obviously thinks differently.  Barbarossa is determinedly (some would say suicidally) staying true to his character, but he failed to take into account that Leliana would also stay true to hers.

[casedawgz]

Here's the thing about the ashes. You talk about it like you're kicking over Andraste's tombstone. You're actually destroying a potent cure-all that saved a dude from the brink of death when no other magic could. It's a little different. It's like destroying the cure to Parkinson's because you don't believe in stem c...never mind.

[Lucy Glitter]

Suprez30 wrote...

I never understood this.You want to defile the ashes because you hate religion .. But it's only a selfish act .

It's would be like pooping on Jesus tomb because you hate the pope!!!Let's me tell you that even the non-believer would be pissed at you.Since it's a historical artefact and could explain a lot.

I'm the kind of ppl that respect the choice of other.Who i am to judge someone choice?Leliana's right to be pissed at you because what you do it's stupid and direspectful.You hate the chantry but you help a bunch of fanatic that worship a dragon.. Hypocrite!!!

-I defiled a sacred relic for millions of people ... I'M SO COOOOOOOOOOOOL

I defiled the ashes once and just felt guilty and stupid and reloaded . What's the point of this?I just don't get it.I hate religion myself but i'm enough of a man to respect important thing for other individual.

I don't care about your mom .. But i won't insult her

I think Maria Caliban said it best: It's Chaotic Stupid.

Most of the time, I don't kill the dragon so no one else ever finds it.

[Janni-in-VA]

I can certainly understand making a certain set of decisions for role-playing reasons. However, some of the other posters are making valid points when they remind the OP that actions have consequences. I have a hard time seeing things in black and white, anyway. I will say that my various characters have handled Zevran differently. My DNF killed him without so much as a flicker of an eyelash. Everyone else has let him live, for various reasons. Some have felt that he had a right to try to redeem himself. Others thought he might be useful. Some have left him in camp for most of the rest of the game. A couple have made a valuable companion out of him, and one of those is working her way into a romance with him. I have yet to defile the Ashes, but I'll make sure I don't take Leliana with me if/when I do. Hmmm, that means I'll have to train up Zevran's lockpicking skills.
One thing to remember about Kolgrim and the people of Haven is that they are a dragon cult. They drink dragon blood, which makes them more aggressive, among other things. Now, why the high dragon would have thought to present herself as Andraste and then ask them to defile the Sacred Ashes is beyond me. And, there's not enough information in the Codices and the lore on draconic intelligence. We really don't know just how intelligent high dragons are, so this could be some delusion that Kolgrim came up with on his own.
It's worth noting that even if you don't defile the Ashes and Brother Genitivi tells the world that they're found, the Ashes suddenly disappear. The Chantry officially makes an announcement that they weren't found after all. You get this information on one of the Epilogue cards. Personally, I think they pulled a Vatican and spirited them away to a vault somewhere, but that's just me.
And, it is important to understand the difference between theory and belief. If you want to believe that various NPCs are cold-blooded murderers, that's your right. But, a theory is a statement which is generally accepted to be true (such as the Theory of General Relativity or the Theory of Evolution) by either process of elimination (Occam's Razor) or by a generally accepted line of reasoning. Theories, however, are NOT proven hypotheses, which require empirical data and repeatable experiments.
I'm not sure where exactly I'm going with all this, just wanted to offer up a thought or two on the subject.  

Modifié par Janni-in-VA, 26 mars 2010 - 05:22 .

[Sarah1281]

It's worth noting that even if you don't defile the Ashes and Brother Genitivi tells the world that they're found, the Ashes suddenly disappear.

That's only if you don't slay the dragon who then spirits them away. If you do kill 'Andraste' then people start making pilgrimages there unimpeded, even by the crazy villagers of Haven who don't have to die to make this possible.

[Barbarossa]

To EmperorSahlertz: What if Barbarossa holds nothing sacred? Also destroying the ashes is a way of ensuring that the current system of checks and balances hold, namely death.

To Sylvanaerie: I'm not really making a complaint about the game. Just having fun with the plot line I chose. I didn't foresee Genitivi coming with me as being a problem and it with that plot line it really isn't, because he didn't change anything. I am thinking of events happening even outside the game's plot: What if someone else at a later time slays the dragon and finds the ashes and shares them with the world? That is a consequence of not destroying the ashes after I found them. I am trying to consider all of the consequences long term, near and far, ingame and out.  It adds another layer of adventure to the game albeit somewhat more realistic.

Suprez30: I see a selfless act in it. Destroying the ashes so no one else wastes their time with them. A consequence of it might be that some person down the line who might spend all day guarding them instead slays a tyrant or creates a tool that might further advance the people of Fereldan.
I did not help the cultists, they helped me to destroy the ashes and then kill them more easily in fact (3 against 4 instead of 5 against 4 if I remember correctly).
On a final note to your response Barbarossa does not hate religion, he has pity on the religious for their bondage to it and feels a desire to release them of those bonds.

To Casedawgz: Refer to my response to Emperor Sahlertz.

To Janni-in-VA: I've replied to some of your statements above and previously. Also, and I'm not sure if this is imagined on my part or not, it seemed to me after defiling the ashes with the dragon's blood that the dragon actually does gain great strength from it. The fight felt like it took a half an hour after that versus not adding the blood it felt like a 5 minute fight. Maybe she actually does absorb the ashes if you add the blood and if you don't but let her live she eventually acquires them. Just a theory and thanks for the thoughts.

Wow the autoformat is... annoying

Modifié par Barbarossa, 26 mars 2010 - 06:53 .

[sami jo]

frostajulie wrote...
*snip*

And in conclusion your theory that Zev is a scumbag murderer is an opinion, not a THEORY, and said opinion is based on your rather narrow and limited persepctive, afterall, you seem to be playing from a vary rigid RP standpoint and you have already Killed Zev so you never learned anything about him, meanwhile those of us who did further explore the character know that your OPINION  is not only one among many differing veiwpoints, it is also completly wrong, utterly understandable given the circumstances of your meeting but totally off base.  Were your Opinion a Theory you would then have to test it by playing a game with Zev as a companion and then you would have to discard your theory.

Exactly my point.

The "scumbag killer" will do all sorts of very non-scumbag things if you bother to travel with him and try to do "scumbag" things.  He didn't have a choice about becoming an assassin and he is taking the first chance he has to no longer be one.  If Morrigan killing templars was in self defense because she had to kill them to survive, Zev killing because he had been sold as a slave to an assassins guild and would be killed if he didn't is hardly different.  With the exception of dog and Allistair (who spent all but the last 6 months of his life in the Chantry), none of your companions has a completely clear conscience; and in keeping with the rogue class, your rogue companions have more skeletons in the closet than most.

Edit: @ Barbarossa: I can completely understand RPing a character who does not keep one or several of the companions for a variety of reasons.  I have a female CE playthrough who couldn't seem to get along with anyone but her dog, Shale and Zevran. 

Modifié par sami jo, 26 mars 2010 - 07:51 .

[MutantSpleen]

Wow you got rid of the two most interesting characters in the game, good job.

[J-Reyno]

Well that sucks, but all in all it sounds more like your character didn't completely think things through or consider the consequences.

As for Zevran, well... he's not really an idiot (he's actually refreshingly practical and perceptive). I think it's more like your character's flaw for taking personal offense to an assassination attempt. Ferelden, no... Thedas has mercenaries and assassins galore. Given different circumstances it could have well been Leliana that was sent to kill you. That is what she used to do for a living, just like Zevran.

Sentencing him to a circumstancial death was your character's perogative, but also your character's mistake. The same could be said for defiling the most holy and sacred thing to Leliana's beliefs without the influence to assure her continued companionship. The game is not without consequences.

[Sabriana]

Duncan himself was a thief and a murderer before he was forced into joining the GWs. So please, why kill a slave who was hired to assassinate the GW? Slaves have little choice, and besides, a smart GW would see right through this extremely shabby assassination attempt. Zevran was not trying to kill the warden, as can be found out later on in the game, if he is befriended/romanced.

Of course, it would take a PC who actually listens to him when he wakes up after being defeated.

He's my most lethal DPS fighter, and he makes everything very easy, especially for my mage. He comes to her defense as soon as she gets attacked, he's set up in default tactics for that.

The player would have to add 'lock-pick' on him, because he doesn't have any skill points in that at the beginning for some odd reason. Or respec him with Raven's mod.

[HoonDing]

Two words: lockbash mod.

I never use Zevran myself; I prefer an archer over a melee rogue, or just an extra mage.

Modifié par virumor, 26 mars 2010 - 09:23 .

[ejoslin]

Volourn wrote...

How pathetic. You assume I only played the game once. In fact, I've played it 3 times including romancing him once. I've read his sob story. Bottom line is he's a scumbag murderer.

He's not poor smhoe. He's a scumbag murderer. Giving him a 'fancy' title of assassin doesn't change that simple fact.

We all do our share of murder around here...

Some of us lop off Loghain's head without giving him a trial.
Some of us kill the bandits even after they've surrendered
Some of us side with the Templars on occasion

Is Zevran a murderer? He sure is. He admits it fully. In a kill-or-be-killed world, he didn't have too much choice. Of course, this is a world where life is far cheaper. Does Zevran try to talk you out of committing acts of slaughter? He sure does. 

The main difference between Leliana's and Zevran's pasts are, ummmmmm, hmmmmmm. Neither of your rogues had very nice pasts I suppose; both did their share of murder.

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 mars 2010 - 12:12 .

[Sabriana]

As for the ashes being sacred and have extraordinary properties, take Oghren with you next time around. It's quite interesting, I can tell you that.

And for those who see the ashes as "holy", play a dwarf. They have no connection to Andraste, the Chantry, or other top-sider religious hang-ups. Or listen to Sten, who also has no connection to the Chantry garbage. To both of those (dwarf and qunari) the urn is an ash-tray/waste-bin.

[HoonDing]

Sabriana wrote...

As for the ashes being sacred and have extraordinary properties, take Oghren with you next time around. It's quite interesting, I can tell you that.
And for those who see the ashes as "holy", play a dwarf. They have no connection to Andraste, the Chantry, or other top-sider religious hang-ups. Or listen to Sten, who also has no connection to the Chantry garbage. To both of those (dwarf and qunari) the urn is an ash-tray/waste-bin.

That may well be true, but it doesn't make destroying the Urn less Chaotic Stupid.

The Dwarves wouldn't like it either if somebody came running around Orzammar with a giant hammer and started shattering all statues of the Paragons.

[sami jo]

virumor wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

As for the ashes being sacred and have extraordinary properties, take Oghren with you next time around. It's quite interesting, I can tell you that.
And for those who see the ashes as "holy", play a dwarf. They have no connection to Andraste, the Chantry, or other top-sider religious hang-ups. Or listen to Sten, who also has no connection to the Chantry garbage. To both of those (dwarf and qunari) the urn is an ash-tray/waste-bin.

That may well be true, but it doesn't make destroying the Urn less Chaotic Stupid.

The Dwarves wouldn't like it either if somebody came running around Orzammar with a giant hammer and started shattering all statues of the Paragons.

There are all kinds of ways to RP a character in this game.  There is nothing wrong with playing as an angry, racist, Chantry-hating dwarf with a g*d-complex.  I would simply argue that killing off Zev then pissing off Lel means that the PC=idiot instead of the rogue companions = idiots. (Please note that I said PC, not the person playing the PC.  I have certainly RPd some pretty reprehensible and stupid characters before)

[Sabriana]

Indeed, Sami Jo. And btw, I'd have no problem RPing a PC who despises the Chantry, and rather gnaw her arm off before letting them have even more influence and power through the so-called miracle ashes. I've yet to play a PC who took Genitivi with her to the ruins. Nobody ever finds out about her find. Ever.

It is your opinion that destroying the ashes is 'chaotic stupid'. It is far from a fact, and reflects only your own RP style. Others think differently. I wish people would stop trying to treat their individual opinions as the "one and only" resolutions by declaring them "facts".

[HoonDing]

sami jo wrote...

There are all kinds of ways to RP a character in this game.  There is nothing wrong with playing as an angry, racist, Chantry-hating dwarf with a g*d-complex.  I would simply argue that killing off Zev then pissing off Lel means that the PC=idiot instead of the rogue companions = idiots. (Please note that I said PC, not the person playing the PC.  I have certainly RPd some pretty reprehensible and stupid characters before)

Well, yes. But what's the point of playing a 'good' or 'evil' character if it all leads to the same outcome anyway?