396 réponses à ce sujet

[Tinnic]

Like many people have pointed out, the title of this thread is grossly misleading. Here I thought we might be discussing Rogue AI in Dragon Age or something like that. But instead what we have here is how a moron Warden PC screwed himself over.



Seriously, what the hell do you expect when you spit in the belief of someone who is supposed to be your friend? You may not like the Chantry and think its all superstition or whatever. But Lieliana and 90% of Feraldan clearly thinks you are the one with the problem and will likely pity your unbelief. That doesn't make Lieliana an idiot, it makes you and idiot for not respecting her beliefs and still expecting her to stay with you.



As for Zevran, how is your choice to kill him make him an idiot? You are the idiot for not giving him a chance to explain himself.



I am sorry, but if you make idiotic choices, you have to live with said consequences and don't blame the game for not letting you play certain philosophies. You companions are not mindless drones and nor do I want them to be. That's part of the charm of the game and antagonising them with your choices and not expecting any consequences is betraying yourself to be a fool. Nothing wrong with the game, or the rogues, the problem is YOU.

[Uunottaja]

They're not idiotic, not every character respects others and so on. However, as you pointed out, one has to live with one's decisions, and usually being a total jerk doesn't make much friends.



Also, yes, the most annoying game mechanic is Bioware NOT giving us a choice to make our rogues flank automatically. Personally I feel manually moving the rogue all the time isn't really the kind of micromanaging I want from the game. Focusing on the spells (Especially AOE) is usually enough micromanaging, also the the fun kind of it.

[Addai]

Uunottaja wrote...

Interesting thread. My own first playtrough was with a human noble rogue. The character's journey ended up being seriously hard, since I killed Wynne and refused taking any healing spells on Morrigan. I also sent Leliana away since I didn't really appreciate her opinions. In the end it was pretty much using myself, Zev, Alistair as a tank and Morrigan as Cone of Cold crowd controller. Having only a healing potion or maybe none, it was really quite hard. Also the game mechanics were slightly alien to me at the time still, which didn't help the fights.

You RPed a character who refused to have Morrigan even learn a healing spell?  Because band aids somehow are the province only of paladins?

I find it hard to imagine Ferelden not ending up a smoking char stain with such idiotic Wardens.  LOL

[Addai]

Mlai00 wrote...

I say, isn't RPG success measured by how much stuff you can kill?  I think I'm doing pretty well.

Once again, they ought to hang a dunce hat on such a Warden at the Landsmeet.  Right before they execute you so that at least there's some competence at the top.

In this case I can say it:  Long live Loghain.

[Red Frostraven]

Point is:



ONE of the two rogues is an assassin who has been hired to kill you.



I can count the number of assassins I've let live in games up to Dragon Age origins on one hand throughout my entire gaming history.

Having one of two rogues in a game be an assassin who's there to kill you is a tad wrong when the other rogue go completely bananas if you complete ONE quest the wrong way.



With the mages, you can't lose the both of them.

With the warriors, you can't lose all of them either.



But the rogues: You can slit one's throath, easily justifiable, and the other one will leave you if you complete a part of the main quest in an unsatisfactory manner.

[Uunottaja]

Well, I liked Morrigan using Entropy and Nature tree with some other fitting spells. I did finnish the game though, and would do it the same way again.



*flickers moustache*

[Addai]

You can lose both mages by the final battle. You can send away or kill all of the warriors except Alistair (later Loghain), or simply fail to recruit them. You don't even need Dog.



Solo, or deal with it.

[Barbarossa]

Some of you are awfully critical about playing the game in a non-mainstream manner and I must tell you I really don't see any sort of fun in playing games that way. Must be why I don't enjoy any games outside of the rpg and strategy genres.

Also, remember what board you are in before you say that because of the thread title it should be about bad rogue AI. This is a board for quests and storyline related topics, not tactics.

Thanks for the defense Genoq, it is greatly appreciated. Red Frostraven too, nice to see that someone else sees it that way. I approached this game without looking at strategy guides or expecting a second playthrough, so I made the moves that seemed logical and followed a particular philosophy and that path lead to two dead rogues...

Edit: Again, not complaining, I have no problem dealing with the consequences of those actions.

Modifié par Barbarossa, 27 mars 2010 - 10:11 .

[Sabriana]

You made your choices, now live with them. I play in a way that the GWs are strapped for just about everything while facing a destructive force that could kill every living thing in Ferelden. Every NPC gets one chance. Morrigan the templar killer, Leliana the bard/killer/thief/etc, Zevran the slave/assassin, Sten the mass murderer, Oghren the drunk/murderer, Shale who killed her master, all get a shot at redemption.

My PC needs allies, desperately. She heeds Duncan's words "Fighting the Blight takes precedence over everything else, the Grey Wardens do what they must do to defeat the archdemon."

Yes, I mean that Duncan, who was a murdering thief/robber before being forced into the joining. Yep that same one, you know, killer and all.

[philippe willaume]

Barbarossa wrote...

    I just wanted to say that I feel somewhat cheated by the fact that both of the rogues(Leliana and Zevran) in my storyline have to die.  I could not let Zevran live after trying to kill my character.  Now I am at the urn of sacred ashes and have explored all of my options trying to keep Leliana and doing the right thing of defiling the ashes of andraste and thus destroying part of the idiotic monotheistic religion that the people of Fereldan follow.  Alas, it looks as if I must finish the game without a rogue to unlock chests and disable traps if I want to feel like I have made the story my own.

    I feel shorted because of this fact:  I get two rogues to choose from, but both of them have serious flaws that make them unusable for me, but I get 4 warriors to choose from.  I understand that warrriors have a slightly more varied use as they can be ranged, dps, or tanks.  Seriously though Zevran and Leliana?  I am on my first playthrough, so I don't really know that Zevran would be an uninteresting companion, but he tried to kill my character!  Alright, done ranting. 

P.S.  Great soundtrack, I can think of only one rpg that had a soundtrack I enjoyed as much and that came out almost a decade ago; the third elder scrolls game.

No really ????????????????


If I kill the two recruitable  rogue of the game I do not have any left to play with. Bugger me sideway with a rake that is an astounding discovery.

Do you think it works the same with mages?

I really can understand your surprise at Leliania getting her knickers in a twist when you defile the urn. 
I have to say that she only gave ever so slights hints that she might be a bit on the believing side that it is easy to miss.
 
Anyway thanks I understand why I got 50% when I took my A level philosophy test. Obviously I was wrong to argue that you could not lie to yourself.
 


Philippe

[Red Frostraven]

1: How would you know Zevran was an NPC without metagaming AND spoiling yourself?
Morrigan sais it herself, if she'd be the assassin, she'd finish the job if the player character did not kill her.
That is the philosophy for most assassins I've ever encountered before anyway:
lie rather than die, and get the job done no matter what.

I wouldn't have had Zevran with me on the second playthrough had I not learned from outside sources that he is in fact a NPC character that doesn't betray you.

2: In the case of Leliana, she rage quits on your if you complete one part of the main quest in one of the two possible ways you can complete it.

There is nothing inherently wrong with defiling the ashes either, so her betrayal came rather unexpectedly.

Neither of the choices can be compared to the two mages, and mages have no FUNCTION other than being generally overpowered and capable of disabling non-boss enemies.

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 27 mars 2010 - 11:00 .

[Uunottaja]

Red Frostraven wrote...

1: How would you know Zevran was an NPC without metagaming AND spoiling yourself?
Morrigan sais it herself, if she'd be the assassin, she'd finish the job if the player character did not kill her.
That is the philosophy for most assassins I've ever encountered before anyway:
lie rather than die, and get the job done no matter what.

I wouldn't have had Zevran with me on the second playthrough had I not learned from outside sources that he is in fact a NPC character that doesn't betray you.

2: In the case of Leliana, she rage quits on your if you complete one part of the main quest in one of the two possible ways you can complete it.

There is nothing inherently wrong with defiling the ashes either, so her betrayal came rather unexpectedly.

Neither of the choices can be compared to the two mages, and mages have no FUNCTION other than being generally overpowered and capable of disabling non-boss enemies.

Good points as well. I personally had no idea Wynne was a possible companion until I chose differently what I spoke on my 3rd time. The same could clearly go with Zevran, I could easily see some characters of mine just smash his head with a mace before letting him speak anymore. Still, these are all just the spice of the game in my opinion. You can't really know what of anything will come in the end.

[Tinnic]

Red Frostraven wrote...

1: How would you know Zevran was an NPC without metagaming AND spoiling yourself?

2: In the case of Leliana, she rage quits on your if you complete one part of the main quest in one of the two possible ways you can complete it.

There is nothing inherently wrong with defiling the ashes either, so her betrayal came rather unexpectedly.

Clearly both you and the original poster went to the same school of "how to relate to people". I did not know that Zevran was a recruitable party member, nor did I spoil myself. When given an option to wake him, I simply took it. Even role playing wise that would be perfectly understandable course of action. Does your PC know who sent the crows? They can guess but I would think that smart thing to do would be to wake the assassin up and ask him who hired him. You can also kill him afterward but then you get the option of recruiting him and know that he is recruitable. So again, problem is you not the game.

Secondly, anyone who thinks that Leliana will not react badly to you defiling the ashes is an idiot. Plain and simple and this once I am not going to mince my words to spare feelings. She was a chantry sister when you met her, she goes on and on about the maker and believes the maker sent her to be with you. I am sorry but in what dimension did you think that defiling one of the most sacred artifacts of her faith would not upset her. Especially since the ashes are clearly real. 

Barbarossa wrote...

Some of you are awfully critical about playing the game in a non-mainstream manner and I must tell you I really don't see any sort of fun in playing games that way. Must be why I don't enjoy any games outside of the rpg and strategy genres.

Also, remember what board you are in before you say that because of the thread title it should be about bad rogue AI. This is a board for quests and storyline related topics, not tactics.

Thanks for the defense Genoq, it is greatly appreciated. Red Frostraven too, nice to see that someone else sees it that way. I approached this game without looking at strategy guides or expecting a second playthrough, so I made the moves that seemed logical and followed a particular philosophy and that path lead to two dead rogues...

Edit: Again, not complaining, I have no problem dealing with the consequences of those actions.

Given that the title of your post was "rogue companions = idiots" you clearly DO have a problem recognising your own failings and are projecting it onto rogues who have done nothing wrong. In addition, people do often post about game machanics on his forums, including bugs etc. So there!

[mousestalker]

Red Frostraven wrote...

Because not enough people have replied to this, here are my $.02.

1: How would you know Zevran was an NPC without metagaming AND spoiling yourself?
Morrigan sais it herself, if she'd be the assassin, she'd finish the job if the player character did not kill her.
That is the philosophy for most assassins I've ever encountered before anyway:
lie rather than die, and get the job done no matter what.

Since it is a role playing game, I like to role play. Generally I role play someone who is reasonably intelligent. Being reasonably intelligent and having a helpless opponent I typically interrogate them. Even if they lie, what they say still tells me a lot. When you speak with Zevran it becomes clear that he sees no point in lying. He's also not especially afraid, which should be a big tip as to his state of mind. The attitude of my first character in any game is that it isn't her that should be afraid, it's her opponents. So no fear on either side.

By the time you talk to Zevran you, as a player, and your character should be well aware that Morrigan has bad judgement as to character and is socially and emotionally retarded. Her advice as regards to people is almost always wrong.

2: In the case of Leliana, she rage quits on your if you complete one part of the main quest in one of the two possible ways you can complete it.

Because I roleplay, I like to listen to my companions. In real life as well as in gaming, listening to other people and asking them questions is a truly wonderful way to find out who they are and what they are about. Lelianna isn't shy about her beliefs. She is devout even when hardened. So it shouldn't be a shocker that she gets upset when you defile the grave of the person she holds in the highest regard.

There is nothing inherently wrong with defiling the ashes either, so her betrayal came rather unexpectedly.

Neither of the choices can be compared to the two mages, and mages have no FUNCTION other than being generally overpowered and capable of disabling non-boss enemies.

Excuse me? There is nothing wrong with desecrating graves? What a wonderful life you must have led to never have lost anyone you love. Grave desecration isn't one of the unholy trinity of fire starting, animal cruelty and bedwetting, but it ought to be. Only someone devoid of any real human empathy and conscience could claim that it isn't wrong.

To the OP: Please note that the problem isn't with the AI from what you have described. If you hit your thumb with a hammer, the problem is rarely with the hammer.

Modifié par mousestalker, 27 mars 2010 - 11:46 .

[Sabriana]

I agree with you, Tinnic & Mousestalker. No, my PC didn't know that Zevran was recruitable, but what kind of stupid person would not take the opportunity to interrogate a would be assassin? Through the dialogue with him comes the information that he's a paid assassin, hired by Loghain, and that he never had any choices because he's a slave. It is also revealed that he wants out, and wishes to join the warden.

Knowledge is power, and she's on a quest that is not only highly difficult and dangerous, but could mean the end of her country. Like Daveth states "If no one stops the darkspawn, we all die for sure." A smart warden takes what she can get, and deals with the repercussions later. Because if the Blight succeeds, there is no "later". Ever. Never Ever. Everything and everyone is dead. Forever.

Wynne turning on the ash-defiling PC is far more shocking and unexpected, simply because she never talks about her being a chantry-lover. In one dialogue she even tells the PC that she doesn't like the chantry much. Leliana on the other hand, can't complete a sentence without mentioning the 'maker' at least once (or so it seems). How hard is it to put one and one together?

Yes, the game lets you make choices, but if you are a failure at Grey Wardening because you put individual self-righteousness (albeit self-righteousness without any wisdom) above saving your country, then you simply have to live with it and don't blame the game for your PC's failure to grasp the clear and present danger and act accordingly to Grey Warden dicta.


Edited because it had to be done.

Modifié par Sabriana, 27 mars 2010 - 11:46 .

[HaloKT]

Barbarossa wrote...

Some of you are awfully critical about playing the game in a non-mainstream manner and I must tell you I really don't see any sort of fun in playing games that way. Must be why I don't enjoy any games outside of the rpg and strategy genres.

I think most people aren't critical of playing the game in a non-standard way, but about playing it and then complaining about how NPCs are idiots, when it's really your non-mainstream playstyle that provoked their behaviour. People are baffled not because you defiled the ashes or killed Zevran. 
The reason people have a hard time agreeing with you is because you basically blame BioWare for not catering towards your "deranged madman" PC by letting you keep an NPC for the sakes of convenience. You want a  Rogue to open locks and doors and disarm traps? Then adapt your non-mainstream playstyle to accommodate for a Rogue. Not killing off Zevran because he happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time might be a good start. Or,you know, just deal with the consequences of not being a nice person. If you're a bit of an arse and a delusional madman, don't expect people to cheer you on for it.

Again, you're very much free to play the game however you like. As I've said, you're certainly not the first one to defile the ashes or kill Zevran. and just to be very clear here - defiling the ashes is what basically amounts to being a James Bond style villain. I'm rather sure you can understand why your companions would take offence.

Edit:
Actually, I haven't said that you aren't the first. I did at first, but then I deleted it again to alter the wording a slight bit. Still, there were plenty of people who already did this. They knew that it would make some people very angry (by, you know, talking to their companions) and accepted it. The fault isn't being an evil, villainesque madman. It's being evil and not accepting the fact that there might be people who aren't exactly OK with that sort of behaviour.

Modifié par HaloKT, 27 mars 2010 - 11:58 .

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

You can lose both mages by the final battle. You can send away or kill all of the warriors except Alistair (later Loghain), or simply fail to recruit them. You don't even need Dog.

Solo, or deal with it.

Heh, yeh, I've done that!  In some ways it was easier, since I had more damage!  Bombs were my friend that game.

[KentGoldings]

The game punishes short sighted, selfish and evil choices (or good choices in the case of Morrigan) by removing team members. If you don't wish to lose the bard, don't destroy the ashes. It is as easy as that.

[sillymonkboy]

Awww....and here I was about to go on about how Sigrun is an absolute beast in melee with dual daggers and good tactics settings.

[sylvanaerie]

Sabriana wrote...

I agree with you, Tinnic & Mousestalker. No, my PC didn't know that Zevran was recruitable, but what kind of stupid person would not take the opportunity to interrogate a would be assassin? Through the dialogue with him comes the information that he's a paid assassin, hired by Loghain, and that he never had any choices because he's a slave. It is also revealed that he wants out, and wishes to join the warden.

Knowledge is power, and she's on a quest that is not only highly difficult and dangerous, but could mean the end of her country. Like Daveth states "If no one stops the darkspawn, we all die for sure." A smart warden takes what she can get, and deals with the repercussions later. Because if the Blight succeeds, there is no "later". Ever. Never Ever. Everything and everyone is dead. Forever.

Wynne turning on the ash-defiling PC is far more shocking and unexpected, simply because she never talks about her being a chantry-lover. In one dialogue she even tells the PC that she doesn't like the chantry much. Leliana on the other hand, can't complete a sentence without mentioning the 'maker' at least once (or so it seems). How hard is it to put one and one together?

Yes, the game lets you make choices, but if you are a failure at Grey Wardening because you put individual self-righteousness (albeit self-righteousness without any wisdom) above saving your country, then you simply have to live with it and don't blame the game for your PC's failure to grasp the clear and present danger and act accordingly to Grey Warden dicta.


Edited because it had to be done.

Wynne even says shes not very religious I think it smacks more of it being a blood magic ritual (Defiling the ashes with dragon blood).  Though she seems aware of the Joining..I dunno that was my impression of her reaction anyway.

[Tinnic]

HaloKT wrote...

Barbarossa wrote...

Some of you are awfully critical about playing the game in a non-mainstream manner and I must tell you I really don't see any sort of fun in playing games that way. Must be why I don't enjoy any games outside of the rpg and strategy genres.

I think most people aren't critical of playing the game in a non-standard way, but about playing it and then complaining about how NPCs are idiots, when it's really your non-mainstream playstyle that provoked their behaviour. People are baffled not because you defiled the ashes or killed Zevran. 
The reason people have a hard time agreeing with you is because you basically blame BioWare for not catering towards your "deranged madman" PC by letting you keep an NPC for the sakes of convenience. You want a  Rogue to open locks and doors and disarm traps? Then adapt your non-mainstream playstyle to accommodate for a Rogue. Not killing off Zevran because he happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time might be a good start. Or,you know, just deal with the consequences of not being a nice person. If you're a bit of an arse and a delusional madman, don't expect people to cheer you on for it.

Again, you're very much free to play the game however you like. As I've said, you're certainly not the first one to defile the ashes or kill Zevran. and just to be very clear here - defiling the ashes is what basically amounts to being a James Bond style villain. I'm rather sure you can understand why your companions would take offence.

Edit:
Actually, I haven't said that you aren't the first. I did at first, but then I deleted it again to alter the wording a slight bit. Still, there were plenty of people who already did this. They knew that it would make some people very angry (by, you know, talking to their companions) and accepted it. The fault isn't being an evil, villainesque madman. It's being evil and not accepting the fact that there might be people who aren't exactly OK with that sort of behaviour.

This! Exactly this!

To the OP: You are free to kill Zevran and to defile the ashes. But then turning around and calling Zevran idiot for dying and Lelianna for being a believer is a bit much. Most of us aren't critical of how you choose to play the game. What we are critical of is your audacity to blame the NPCs and Bioware for effectively shooting yourself on the foot.

As Sabriana said, Wynn turning on your for defiling the ashes is a surprise as she freely admits that she is not religious and doesn't like the chantry much. She does say that she had a good relationship with the revered mother of the mage's circle chapel but that's about it. Lelianna turning on you... you should have seen it coming. If you are not willing to respect her beliefs, then you shouldn't expect her to stay with you. Same is also true of Sten. Insult the Qun and see how much Sten approves.

[HaloKT]

Wynne however does have a very set in stone point of view on morals and ethics. Which shouldn't be surprising either, given her age and experience. Wynne is a character that is very much selfless. She always looks out for others, even if it puts herself in danger. Unsurprisingly, she does expect a hero to act like this as well. And as a Grey Warden, she very much expects you to be the hero.



So, despite her not being religious, she expects you to be the hero. And heroes don't go around doing villain stuff. But yeah, her acceptance of the Joining despite her hatred of Blood magic is a bit... surprising, since the Joining is Blood Magic as well. Maybe it'S because it's necessary to form those heroic characters and it doesn't involve sacrificing humans (other than the risk of dying during the Joining)? Don't know, to be honest...

[Archereon]

HaloKT: That's the reason most people despise Wynne...Because she will only accept a Warden who fulfills the "White Knight" archetype.



Also, the funny thing is, if you polled everyone on Dragon Age on their opinions of the Chantry it would go, with little deviation...



Conservative Christians/Jews/Muslims: Chantry is great...



Moderate Christians/Jews/Muslims: The Chantry has a good idea, but it should be more tolerant of other beliefs...



Liberal Christians/Jews/Muslims: The Chantry itself is a bad institution, its beliefs are legitimate, but it needs to be reined in.



Everyone Else: F*CK THE CHANTRY!

[Red Frostraven]

I swear, Bioware will never ever be allowed to implement a smart and charismatic assassin, because the fangirls would completely go bananas when he, expectedly, betrays them.

Like I said, based on previous experience, assassins are dangerous -- and almost always unscrupulous
I was kind of disappointed that no naive decisions had fatal consequences in the game.

Zevran could easily have poisoned the food in a cutscene following the battle, and had the entire party killed.
In the Fade, on my second playthrough with a mage, I saved before talking to the demon -- and TRIED to get "game over"... but it didn't work.

To me, killing assassins and ignoring unfounded beliefs come quite naturally from a roleplaying perspective.

First and foremost, what does letting assassins live and eat by your table tell other and smarter would-be assassins?
That the warden is gullible and thus rather easy to kill. Not in combat, but only stupid assassins kill people in straight-forward combat -- that's thugs and highwaymen right there.
What would have happened if an assassin came and told he wanted to join your wardens, with the hidden intent to poison you all, I wonder?
He would have succeeded against your characters, but not against mine, because all my companions undergo some serious scrutiny before they're trusted.

Heck, that would be an more acceptable and less dubious way to introduce Zevran: Have him join with the intention of poisoning you, then have him tell your character about the plot and that he doesn't intend to fulfill the contract.

I admit, in this game, some of my characters are severely punished for their less naive, more wordly attitudes... but that is solely because the game is forgiving naivity much more than it's forgiving those who are not trusting everyone and their mother by their own words at every turn.
Trusting an assassin by his words, after you have defeated him in battle, IS naive: He came to you to KILL YOU, and TRIED to kill you once. If he still intends to kill you, he can lie and possibly get another shot, or die.

Had Zevran succeeded, he would have remained an assassin for the rest of his life.
Had you barely managed to escape the encounter, he would have tried again.
Had you accepted him into your party without a fight, believing him to be a recruit, he would have poisoned you in your sleep.

He ONLY joins you because he believes you're strong enough to not be killed by the next assassin, and is actually exploiting you in a sense.

Had he given up BEFORE you killed him the first time (he died with an excess 150 damage in my game due to entropic death, but was obviously given a second chance by the maker) -- it wouldn't bee too bad.
He would not have spared you, had your positions been switched around, which makes him undeserving of trust and life in my book.

Would you have complained if you got a death-by-poison cutscene after recruiting zevran?
I certainly would not, because that would only be expected.

And Leliana, who's precious maker MADE the darkspawn... I did expect her to react badly, but... unlike sten, why does she insist to kill the only two people who can save the world from the creations of her maker because you pour blood into the ashes to avoid a fight with a freaking high dragon so that you may live to save the world?

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 27 mars 2010 - 01:10 .

[sylvanaerie]

HaloKT wrote...

Wynne however does have a very set in stone point of view on morals and ethics. Which shouldn't be surprising either, given her age and experience. Wynne is a character that is very much selfless. She always looks out for others, even if it puts herself in danger. Unsurprisingly, she does expect a hero to act like this as well. And as a Grey Warden, she very much expects you to be the hero.

So, despite her not being religious, she expects you to be the hero. And heroes don't go around doing villain stuff. But yeah, her acceptance of the Joining despite her hatred of Blood magic is a bit... surprising, since the Joining is Blood Magic as well. Maybe it'S because it's necessary to form those heroic characters and it doesn't involve sacrificing humans (other than the risk of dying during the Joining)? Don't know, to be honest...

Yea she has some serious GW hero worship going on there.  During some of those conversations I take the silly options (the Griffon one I take to the N'th degree just to see her "MAKER its like talking to a child" dialogue) just to get her goat.