396 réponses à ce sujet

[mousestalker]

sylvanaerie wrote...


Yea she has some serious GW hero worship going on there.  During some of those conversations I take the silly options (the Griffon one I take to the N'th degree just to see her "MAKER its like talking to a child" dialogue) just to get her goat.

]
{Minor Spoiler} One of the small disappointments about encountering Wynne in DA:A was there was no dialogue choice to mention griffons. The devs missed a comedy opportunity there.
:innocent:

[sylvanaerie]

mousestalker wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...


Yea she has some serious GW hero worship going on there.  During some of those conversations I take the silly options (the Griffon one I take to the N'th degree just to see her "MAKER its like talking to a child" dialogue) just to get her goat.

]
{Minor Spoiler} One of the small disappointments about encountering Wynne in DA:A was there was no dialogue choice to mention griffons. The devs missed a comedy opportunity there.
:innocent:

LOL that would have been classic!!

[Mlai00]

Addai67 wrote...

Mlai00 wrote...
I say, isn't RPG success measured by how much stuff you can kill?  I think I'm doing pretty well.

Once again, they ought to hang a dunce hat on such a Warden at the Landsmeet.  Right before they execute you so that at least there's some competence at the top.
In this case I can say it:  Long live Loghain.

Sigh... wit has no audience on the internet.

FYI, there's nothing wrong with how I am playing.

I want Zev to betray me because I want to experience that.  It's the only reason my PC slitted his throat but then decided to reload and spare him.  And it's why I'm giving him no gifts.  He'll serve me well until that time comes.

I want Lel to betray me because I want to experience that.  However, I like the amount of ass she can kick with a bow, now that I'm using Combat Tweaks... so I might reload and spare her by leaving her at camp at the last moment.  Depends.  I don't need need her, though.  I'm a rogue myself.  She'll serve me well until that time comes.

I will do fine against the Archdemon; I have werewolves.  With Overwhelm.

[ejoslin]

Red Frostraven wrote...

I swear, Bioware will never ever be allowed to implement a smart and charismatic assassin, because the fangirls would completely go bananas when he, expectedly, betrays them.

Like I said, based on previous experience, assassins are dangerous -- and almost always unscrupulous
I was kind of disappointed that no naive decisions had fatal consequences in the game.

Zevran could easily have poisoned the food in a cutscene following the battle, and had the entire party killed.
In the Fade, on my second playthrough with a mage, I saved before talking to the demon -- and TRIED to get "game over"... but it didn't work.

To me, killing assassins and ignoring unfounded beliefs come quite naturally from a roleplaying perspective.

Zevran actually may point out to the warden after going to the tent that had he wanted to kill her (or him), he would have poisoned the food.  However, there's something about Zevran's story, from the start, which made me more curious than anything.

And he was trying to die.  /shrug.  Make of it what you want.  Play it how you want.  But that doesn't mean other people are wrong.  If Zevran betrays you the second time, either you were pretty rude to him, or you ignored him completely, were completely evil (he doesn't like that, big surprise), and/or didn't give him his gifts. 

Edit: And as Sabriana said, Zevran IS smart and charismatic.  He's written that way.  He is the most savvy of your companions, and gives the best advice (and gives it a lot).

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 mars 2010 - 01:25 .

[Sabriana]

You have once again no idea what you are talking about. Zevran *is* a smart and charismatic assassin. If you role-play that you simply can't give a slave who had no choice a chance at freedom, then so be it, but don't try to press your narrow views on other people. I swear, all your posts read alike.

If you could be bothered to step beyond your simplistic ideas and get to know the NPCs you'd find out that Zevran could indeed poison everyone. He openly admits that there are poisons who would kill everyone but himself, because he's immune to that poison.

You find out that Howe/Loghain have taken out a contract on your Warden with a highly organized and powerful order of assassins. You have the opportunity to recruit the failed one who not only can protect you from his former colleagues, who despises the organization that enslaved him, and who knows most of the tricks and methods of the Crows. Killing Zevran does not make the Crows go away. He is expendable, and he's well aware of it. He also doesn't try to kill the warden. However, that little tid-bit only comes out if he's befriended/romanced and has a high approval with the warden.

But of course, I can expect a long-winded, repetitive, and illogical reply. Not that I'm not used to it.

[Red Frostraven]

What? He will betray you even if you let him live, only because you don't give him enough gifts?

*Sigh* ungrateful little piece of mabari ****...

Sabriana wrote...
But of course, I can expect a long-winded, repetitive, and illogical reply. Not that I'm not used to it.

Illogical?
Can you point to any of my fallacies, then?

... I didn't even know Zevran had the guts to betray you after you spared his life, but he will try again unless you butter him up, appearantly.
Credits to the designers for that one.

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 27 mars 2010 - 01:31 .

[HaloKT]

Archereon wrote...

HaloKT: That's the reason most people despise Wynne...Because she will only accept a Warden who fulfills the "White Knight" archetype.

Also, the funny thing is, if you polled everyone on Dragon Age on their opinions of the Chantry it would go, with little deviation...

Conservative Christians/Jews/Muslims: Chantry is great...

Moderate Christians/Jews/Muslims: The Chantry has a good idea, but it should be more tolerant of other beliefs...

Liberal Christians/Jews/Muslims: The Chantry itself is a bad institution, its beliefs are legitimate, but it needs to be reined in.

Everyone Else: F*CK THE CHANTRY!

It's also mirrored in her gifts. Wynne really seems to like her romantic novels. It's easy to think of her as someone who has an overly romantic view on what she considers to be heroes.
Still I find her very soothing to have around. Although the party banter with Wynne, Leli and Alistair is rather... boring. Unsurprisingly, they don't have a lot of conflicts apart from Alistair being as much of an annoying grandson around Wynne as he possibly can.

And the Chantry, well, yes. It's funny how not one of your companions actually likes the Chantry. Even Leliana, who is arguably the most devoted of the bunch, resents them.

[ejoslin]

Red Frostraven wrote...

What? He will betray you even if you let him live, only because you don't give him enough gifts?

*Sigh* ungrateful little piece of mabari ****...

*sigh* It's called "approval."  Strangely, with Zevran, I never have to give him gifts, even when not romancing him.  Then again, I don't come across as a self-righteous jerk to him either.  I give the rest of my companions their gifts -- it's a game design.  Doesn't stop them from betraying my warden, though, if I do things they really disapprove of.

Edit: Again, if you don't want Zevran, if you kill him on sight or ignore him and get betrayed, /shrug, it's your game.  It certainly doesn't affect ME!  You're missing out on one of the companions, one with a very interesting story and who is seriously deadly, but that's your choice!

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 mars 2010 - 01:32 .

[Mlai00]

I have to agree with Frostraven on his line of logic regarding assassins.

Real life (as far as the PCs know it) has no reloads for them to take a chance with every smooth-talking assassin who comes along and offers to fight for the cause of the GWs.

I think DAO would be cool if every time you recruit Zev, and before his approval shoots past Warm to Friendly, whenever you go to your Camp there's a 10% chance you get a poisoning cutscene followed by "Your journey has ended." LOL!

I'm tailoring this playthrough for Zev to betray me, specifically to avoid, at least once, the "enemy turned lover" TV trope. Why does Morrigan harp about how a real assassin would just poison the whole party... she's hanging a huge neon lampshade right there, for your benefit, Zev lovers!

[Tinnic]

Red Frostraven wrote...

What? He will betray you even if you let him live, only because you don't give him enough gifts?

*Sigh* ungrateful little piece of mabari ****...

You can also sleep with him and make him fall in love with you. Or just listen to his life story and you know, be a friend to him. Zevran will not betray a friend. Zevran will betray a selfish bastard who doesn't care about him any more then the crows did. Incidentally, Zevran also, by in-large, does not approve of evil deeds. In short, Zevran is a fairly decent guy who will stick with his friends and help you defeat the blight at the cost of his life. He will not, however, stay with... for want of a better word... an evil jerk.

[-PG-Skyre]

I find it funny that the OP nearly killed his entire crew...

[ejoslin]

Mlai00 wrote...

I have to agree with Frostraven on his line of logic regarding assassins.
Real life (as far as the PCs know it) has no reloads for them to take a chance with every smooth-talking assassin who comes along and offers to fight for the cause of the GWs.
I think DAO would be cool if every time you recruit Zev, and before his approval shoots past Warm to Friendly, whenever you go to your Camp there's a 10% chance you get a poisoning cutscene followed by "Your journey has ended." LOL!
I'm tailoring this playthrough for Zev to betray me, specifically to avoid, at least once, the "enemy turned lover" TV trope. Why does Morrigan harp about how a real assassin would just poison the whole party... she's hanging a huge neon lampshade right there, for your benefit, Zev lovers!

But that is not in his character.  He is never out to actually kill the warden.  He is out to kill himself.  Instead, he gets a chance at a new life, which he jumps at, and if you spend even a little effort, you have a very loyal companion.  If you ask him to leave before Taliesen is killed, he refuses, and you have to kill him in camp.  

Edit: Zevran considers the warden his savior.  As far as deciding to kill him straight off or have him betray you, why not.  I've had some fun with having Leliana try to kill my warden at 100 love.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 mars 2010 - 01:38 .

[Sabriana]

You did the same thing by whining about "having to leave Morrigan because she teh evulz" in the other forum. Then you wondered and whined some more when people pointed and laughed at you. Same old, same old.

Seriously, the man is in great danger, simply for leaving the Crows. Leaving is an automatic death sentence. If he's ignored and neglected, who can blame him for becoming afraid that he's just a bargaining chip for the PC should the Crows throw the next wave of assassins at the warden.

You don't even have to give him gifts, just be civil to him. He is just about the only one who *will not* turn on the PC if his approval is high enough, and you don't need gifts for that.



Wynne: No matter what approval, that you most definitely have to raise with presents, she will always turn on you at her crisis point



Leliana: Ditto



Shale: Ditto



Alistair: Ditto, although he won't try to kill the PC



Morrigan: won't turn on the PC because she has her own agenda to fulfill



Zevran: Talk to him, be civil to him, get him to the 26+ point, and there is nary a thing to worry about. No gifts needed.



The only one who'll leave when the approval is at it's max negative is Oghren, who doesn't try to kill the PC.



The truly one one who will never betray your PC or leave is the dog.

[Red Frostraven]

He is also the only one who will BETRAY you if you solely because you DO NOT butter him up.

Seriously, the man is in great danger, simply for leaving the Crows.
Leaving is an automatic death sentence. If he's ignored and neglected,
who can blame him for becoming afraid that he's just a bargaining chip
for the PC should the Crows throw the next wave of assassins at the
warden.

Yet, when you talk to the only crow grandmaster you can meet in the game, he goes "lol? Wtf? *SHOULD* we care about Zevran quitting? Nah..!"

AND seriously, the man is supposedly in great danger, simply for FAILING at his task AND for supposedly leaving the Crows.
I can blame him for mistrusting the person who not only spared his life, protect him from the crows and feed him, arm him and take him to interesting places -- but also give him an alternative in life to assassinating... especially when he basicly go "you should have finished the job last time" at some point in the game.

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 27 mars 2010 - 01:53 .

[sylvanaerie]

Red Frostraven wrote...

He is also the only one who will BETRAY you if you solely because you DO NOT butter him up.

You seem to think of it as "Sucking up to the assassin" or thats the impression I am getting.  Zevran makes a wonderful friend once you get to know him.  But if you leave him in camp ignore him and know what his situation was prior to joining you then when he betrays you later its not HIS fault you were a total douche.  He's going with a known commodity (Taliesan) rather than some stranger who he never gets a chance to know or like.

Kill him or not, ignore him or not its your game but then don't ****** and moan cause you chose to play him that way.  The NPC is going to respond the way his AI would dictate and frankly thats justified IMO.  You had your chance to make friends with him and just ignored it.

[ejoslin]

Red Frostraven wrote...

He is also the only one who will BETRAY you if you solely because you DO NOT butter him up.

Hmmm, no one else leaves at low approval?  Are you SURE about that?

And actually, no you don't have to "butter him up."  You're pretty funny though.  Again, it's your game.  I choose to spare him, I choose to get to know him, and I end up with someone who would, if allowed, to kill anyone who he thinks betrays the warden (tells Queen Anora that he's looking for a reason not to slit her throat and toss her in the river if she betrayed the warden for instance, and this is at +26 approval).

I end up having to give his non-plot gifts to Wynne.  Even if you just gave him his plot gifts, all it would take is one conversation, and one where you're actually decent to him (it's initiated by you selecting him -- he asks about what you plan to do with him after the blight, which is pretty pertinent information for him to have), you never have to worry about him betraying you.

Again, he wants to die, not to kill you.  But I think you know all this already.

[Mlai00]

He killed his entire crew? No, he only killed his 2 rogues.

That's not unusual. I might have 3 dead party members by the end, by my hand. Definitely I'll have 2. And if you include the party members I will have betrayed in some big way, without killing... that number jumps to 4-5.

Note: I'm not counting Mr. Seekrit Companion. If I do, that number goes to 6.

In short, Zevran is a fairly decent guy who will stick with his friends and help you defeat the blight at the cost of his life. He will not, however, stay with... for want of a better word... an evil jerk.

That's a biased assumption. You don't have to be an evil jerk to lose approval with him. You simply have to not cater to him.

-- There are perfectly logical non-evil reasons to end the major quests in a way he disapproves of. For example, he disapproves of you annuling the mage tower. But his experiences and my PC's, differ. He sees it as an opportunity for the mages to earn redemption. My PC has gone through Warden's Keep, and Honnleath, and Redcliffe Village... she knows that in a real world, the risk is too great. If you read all the codex entries you can glean from the tower, you know that the Fereldan Circle was suffering from an irrevocable schism. It's not just Uldred and a few minions; blood mages have infested its core.

-- You don't have to be a jerk when talking to him. You just don't nod approvingly whenever he talks about how much fun it is to kill people.

[ejoslin]

Mlai00 wrote...

He killed his entire crew? No, he only killed his 2 rogues.
That's not unusual. I might have 3 dead party members by the end, by my hand. Definitely I'll have 2. And if you include the party members I will have betrayed in some big way, without killing... that number jumps to 4-5.
Note: I'm not counting Mr. Seekrit Companion. If I do, that number goes to 6.

In short, Zevran is a fairly decent guy who will stick with his friends and help you defeat the blight at the cost of his life. He will not, however, stay with... for want of a better word... an evil jerk.

That's a biased assumption. You don't have to be an evil jerk to lose approval with him. You simply have to not cater to him.
-- There are perfectly logical non-evil reasons to end the major quests in a way he disapproves of. For example, he disapproves of you annuling the mage tower. But his experiences and my PC's, differ. He sees it as an opportunity for the mages to earn redemption. My PC has gone through Warden's Keep, and Honnleath, and Redcliffe Village... she knows that in a real world, the risk is too great. If you read all the codex entries you can glean from the tower, you know that the Fereldan Circle was suffering from an irrevocable schism. It's not just Uldred and a few minions; blood mages have infested its core.
-- You don't have to be a jerk when talking to him. You just don't nod approvingly whenever he talks about how much fun it is to kill people.

You CAN get beyond that conversation you know.  And you don't have to agree with him there -- tell him you take no pleasure in killing.  If you call him a murderer, yeh, you lose approval; he thinks you're a hypocrite. You tell him he's sick, well, yeh, he will disapprove of that.  Tell him you can't picture doing anything but being an assassin?  Guess what, you lose approval.  Tell him you're happy he's joined you -- talk about big approval jumps.  Just be decent.  We're not talking major ass kissing.  PLUS, with the mages and the Dalish, you can use the persuade check.

Edit: Truthfully, I find it harder to trust Leliana.  She lies to you at first about who she is, and then, as you get to know her, you learn that she is an assassin as well, and one who used manipulation to get to her targets -- and willingly chose that life.  Zevran at least is up front about everything.  Not only being an assassin (of course you know that) but about being a slave, his reasons for wanting to leave, etc.  Leliana, you can never be quite sure.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 mars 2010 - 02:02 .

[HaloKT]

Mlai00 wrote...

He killed his entire crew? No, he only killed his 2 rogues.
That's not unusual. I might have 3 dead party members by the end, by my hand. Definitely I'll have 2. And if you include the party members I will have betrayed in some big way, without killing... that number jumps to 4-5.
Note: I'm not counting Mr. Seekrit Companion. If I do, that number goes to 6.

In short, Zevran is a fairly decent guy who will stick with his friends and help you defeat the blight at the cost of his life. He will not, however, stay with... for want of a better word... an evil jerk.

That's a biased assumption. You don't have to be an evil jerk to lose approval with him. You simply have to not cater to him.
-- There are perfectly logical non-evil reasons to end the major quests in a way he disapproves of. For example, he disapproves of you annuling the mage tower. But his experiences and my PC's, differ. He sees it as an opportunity for the mages to earn redemption. My PC has gone through Warden's Keep, and Honnleath, and Redcliffe Village... she knows that in a real world, the risk is too great. If you read all the codex entries you can glean from the tower, you know that the Fereldan Circle was suffering from an irrevocable schism. It's not just Uldred and a few minions; blood mages have infested its core.
-- You don't have to be a jerk when talking to him. You just don't nod approvingly whenever he talks about how much fun it is to kill people.

Annulling the Circle however is evil. We're talking about killing a lot of potentially innocent people because you can't be bothered to check if they're abominations or not. That's like dropping napalm bombs on villages just because there could possibly be a few terrorists in there. If you want to annul the Circle, the only conversation option at that point would be "Oh yeah, I'm quite the homicidal bastard myself". Which renders all the "but he's an evil murderer!" argumentation pretty much moot. 

[Volourn]

"Ahh, good. Since you are so very adamant about not having anything to do with scumbag murderers, I'm guessing you left leliana in Lothering, no?"



I had no reason to know Leilina was an assassin, and since I didn't talk with her in depth never found out 9first time through).



" And of course, you kicked Morrigan to the curb at the first opportunity when she filled you in on her own past gems."



Killing in self defense isn not murder.Templars try to kill her but she kills them first = not murder.





"And of course, you did not go and kill Flemeth and retrieve her grimoire based only on Morrigan's pleas and information."



Flemeth had evil intentions towards a friend as she planned to kill her and take her place. I had no reason to NOT trust Morrigan.And,. Flemeth never denies her intentions whe you confront her.





" Did you manage to get rid of Oghren as well? You do know he was stripped of status and caste for murder."



See.. I musta missed that since I didn't tlak in depth with him either and from I gather he got kicked out because he became a drunk and acted the tool. The dwarf who hated him just badmouthed him for being a punk. *shrug*





" And naturally, you left Shale in Honnleath, because taking an unstable golem who killed her former master and hates people would certainly conflict with your strong ethics. "



'Killed her former MASTER'. A slave rising up against their slaver is NOT a murderer.





Aklso, it should be noted, that you can anme all the bad deeds committed by the otehr characters IN THE PAST, it still doesn't chnage the fact that Zev *is* a scumbag murderer.



Bottom line is Zev is a scumbag murderer, and the sins of the tohers doesn't change the fact that Zev is a scumbag murderer.



Capiche?

[Mlai00]

PLUS, with the mages and the Dalish, you can use the persuade check.

LOL but I accept that my chara is a street thug. A cheeky one with a semi-decent heart, but a thug nonetheless. I'll willingly take my lumps in quests when I choose the less-than-perfect answers.

Truthfully, I find it harder to trust Leliana.

I definitely agree with that.

That doesn't mean I lose approval with her, though. Trust has nothing to do with ease in conversation. Lel is very easy to talk to, doesn't mean I trust her. Sten is a clam even after you finish his quest, and I can STILL lose approval with him in conversation(!), but I trust him. Morrigan, my PC just clicks with, and we're all buddy-buddy... but the person that she is, makes it easy to betray her without feeling bad at all.

[BrutalWolfs]

Im going to.... Back away slowly from this fourm.

[ejoslin]

Mlai00 wrote...

PLUS, with the mages and the Dalish, you can use the persuade check.

LOL but I accept that my chara is a street thug. A cheeky one with a semi-decent heart, but a thug nonetheless. I'll willingly take my lumps in quests when I choose the less-than-perfect answers.

Truthfully, I find it harder to trust Leliana.

I definitely agree with that.
That doesn't mean I lose approval with her, though. Trust has nothing to do with ease in conversation. Lel is very easy to talk to, doesn't mean I trust her. Sten is a clam even after you finish his quest, and I can STILL lose approval with him in conversation(!), but I trust him. Morrigan, my PC just clicks with, and we're all buddy-buddy... but the person that she is, makes it easy to betray her without feeling bad at all.

If she weren't a master manipulator -- if she had not been able to get people to trust her by talking to them, she would not have been a very good bard.  Leliana pretty much goes along with whatever you say.

I find it far easier to get approval with Zevran though.  I don't need to give him gifts, again, if decent (even if not romancing him).  Leliana, to get her approval high enough to open more conversations, I need to give her at least that first chantry gift.  Same with Alistair, actually.  Actually, Zevran is the ONLY companion where I can raise his approval quite high without a gift.  Most companions, to get past +26 and get those conversations opened up, require some bribery.  

[Mlai00]

Annulling the Circle however is evil. We're talking about killing a lot of potentially innocent people because you can't be bothered to check if they're abominations or not. That's like dropping napalm bombs on villages just because there could possibly be a few terrorists in there. If you want to annul the Circle, the only conversation option at that point would be "Oh yeah, I'm quite the homicidal bastard myself". Which renders all the "but he's an evil murderer!" argumentation pretty much moot.

Unless I missed a story branch, annuling the circle doesn't mean you go and kill a lot of mages, acting as judge jury executioner. It means you tell the Templars:

"These mages need to be held in captivity and carefully interrogated (yes, will involve torture) by the Chantry central authorities" ==> A very sensible move.

Versus:

"I've cleared the circle of all evil mages. You Templar guys can stand down from code red now. Irving's got it covered. Everything's back to normal." ==> You have no way of knowing that, everything is not back to normal, Irving did not have it covered even when the circle was working, and it's a naive boneheaded conclusion on your part.

Also, executing suspected diabolists to protect entire villages, are different from assassinating civilians for money.

[Sabriana]

Have you played the game, Volourn? Obviously not.

Morrigan: No, the templars didn't try to kill her or Flemeth. They lured them into the wilds with Morrigan as bait.

Leliana: A murderer, a thief, a spy, and a liar, who freely chose her life of murder and mayhem

Zevran: A SLAVE who was purchased for 3 sovereigns at the age of 7. He tries to shake off his MASTERS at the earliest opportunity. Disobedience means death, especially for a SLAVE.

Sten: A mass-murderer who slew an entire family. An entire unarmed family who only tried to help him.

Capiche?