396 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

ejoslin wrote...

Daewan wrote...

@Volourn Why don't you just admit you killed Zevran because you didn't want to accidentally fall into his tent and touch his naughty bits?

That is NEVER an accident!   Hahahaha, it falls under more, "Even though I SAID we could have sex I didn't expect them to actually have a CUT SCENE!  Well, maybe I did, but I didn't expect it to be MY warden!  Well, maybe I did, but I didn't expect it to be so HOT!  Well, NO, wait! I didn't find it hot!  HOW DID I GET INTO THAT TENT! Pervy elf!"

LOL okay YOU can make me laugh Ejoslin!  Wickedly so! 

[ejoslin]

*grin* People who complain about going into the tent with Zevran are funny.

[Addai]

Red Frostraven wrote...

Sten: A mass murderer who slew an entire family in affection for a possession that defined his existance as a warrior, who doesn't betray you, never lies, and who won't turn his back against you at any approval rate.
He is repenting his crimes if he is allowed to go unchecked.

LOL  Obviously never taken him to Haven, eh?

First time I did that, I just stood there, not willing to fight back.  Until he took down half my health with the first swing of his two-hander and then I said "b*tch, it is ON!"

Ha.  It just amuses me the backflips people put themselves through about how Zevran is eeeevil and everyone else is pure as the driven snow.

[HoonDing]

Doesn't Zevran mention having killed women & children during assassinations, and casually shrugged those off as collateral damage? Maybe that's why some people would consider him a "scumbag murderer".

[Sabriana]

@ Skadi, Ejoslin, Syvanaerie and Addai.

I very much appreciate the reminder to never, ever have dinner in front of my computer while reading your posts



Pfeh!



*Grabs sponge and towel while grumbling and being laughed at by son, daughter and cat*

[Sarah1281]

I can't say no to Dagna. I haven't played a dwarf yet, but none of my others, including the lone male could deny her

I tried to turn her down when I played DN (DC hates Orzammar and was all for anyone leaving it under any circumstances) and even talked to her father about it, but when you tell Dagna her father doesn't want her to go and she says he just wants to use her by getting an advantageous marriage for the family...well, my DN was annoyed and won her own Proving because Harrowmont tried to pull the same thing. If she was fully aware of what she was giving up and still willing, why not?

[Sabriana]

virumor wrote...

Doesn't Zevran mention having killed women & children during assassinations, and casually shrugged those off as collateral damage? Maybe that's why some people would consider him a "scumbag murderer".

Actually, he doesn't shrug it off. He's genuinely sorry that innocent bystanders do get caught in the fallout sometimes, and he has to console himself by clinging to the belief that fate is involved. Yes, he actually says that.

Unlike other NPC(s) who actually enjoyed the murder, the seduction, and the hunt, and are quite giddy when talking about it.

[sylvanaerie]

Addai67 wrote...

Red Frostraven wrote...

Sten: A mass murderer who slew an entire family in affection for a possession that defined his existance as a warrior, who doesn't betray you, never lies, and who won't turn his back against you at any approval rate.
He is repenting his crimes if he is allowed to go unchecked.

LOL  Obviously never taken him to Haven, eh?

First time I did that, I just stood there, not willing to fight back.  Until he took down half my health with the first swing of his two-hander and then I said "b*tch, it is ON!"

Ha.  It just amuses me the backflips people put themselves through about how Zevran is eeeevil and everyone else is pure as the driven snow.

OMG he actually fights you in Haven? i took him there for the dialogue once (by that time though I had finished his personal quest and he was pretty high in approval with me) and the line he gives about your AD fighting strategy is a hoot!

[sylvanaerie]

Sabriana wrote...

@ Skadi, Ejoslin, Syvanaerie and Addai.
I very much appreciate the reminder to never, ever have dinner in front of my computer while reading your posts

Pfeh!

*Grabs sponge and towel while grumbling and being laughed at by son, daughter and cat*

LOL ****** for tat, some of yours have been a scream for me here...so no mercy given !  OH and add Errant and Surelyforth to that list of posts to watch out for They have wicked wit!

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 27 mars 2010 - 06:41 .

[HoonDing]

Sabriana wrote...

Actually, he doesn't shrug it off. He's genuinely sorry that innocent bystanders do get caught in the fallout sometimes, and he has to console himself by clinging to the belief that fate is involved. Yes, he actually says that.

Unlike other NPC(s) who actually enjoyed the murder, the seduction, and the hunt, and are quite giddy when talking about it.

Are you referring to Leliana? If so, her modus operandi didn't involve killing innocent bystanders. Not to mention when she brings up that part of her past (I beleive this happens after dealing with Marjolaine), I don't recall her being giddy about it.

Zevran being 'genuinely sorry' may be your impression, but it certainly wasn't mine. Besides, I believe Zevran enjoyed the hunt too, when regular targets were involved. But since apparently for some odd reason he doesn't master the art of lockpicking, he's obviously at a disadvantage compared with Leliana, being forced to take out targets in the streets...

Modifié par virumor, 27 mars 2010 - 06:51 .

[mousestalker]

virumor wrote...
Zevran being 'genuinely sorry' may be your impression, but it certainly wasn't mine. Besides, I believe Zevran enjoyed the hunt too, when regular targets were involved. But since apparently for some odd reason he doesn't master the art of lockpicking, he's obviously at a disadvantage compared with Leliana, being forced to take out targets in the streets...

He prefers to stick his hand in cramped spaces other than locks is all. Long story, that...

[sylvanaerie]

virumor wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

Actually, he doesn't shrug it off. He's genuinely sorry that innocent bystanders do get caught in the fallout sometimes, and he has to console himself by clinging to the belief that fate is involved. Yes, he actually says that.

Unlike other NPC(s) who actually enjoyed the murder, the seduction, and the hunt, and are quite giddy when talking about it.

Are you referring to Leliana? If so, her modus operandi didn't involve killing innocent bystanders. Not to mention when she brings up that part of her past (I beleive this happens after dealing with Marjolaine), I don't recall her being giddy about it.

Besides, I believe Zevran enjoyed the hunt too, when regular targets were involved. But since apparently for some odd reason he doesn't master the art of lockpicking, he's obviously at a disadvantage compared with Leliana, being forced to take out targets in the streets...

He actually says that he NEVER kills innocent bystanders but it happens in the course of his hits sometimes.  Its not something he can control (it being their fate kind of thing).  Its a practical attitude he had to adopt to protect that core of him that was still empathetic.  He had no control over his own fate, it was kill or be killed.  He was indoctrinated to the Crow philosophy at the age of 7.  How many seven year olds do you know could resist grown adults making them do things?  Especially if the cost of failure is DEATH!  And when the PC gives him his first chance to escape that life (remember its kill or be killed) do you blame him for taking it?

[Sabriana]

I'm guessing you haven't had their party banter yet. Your impression of Zevran doesn't tally with mine, and my impression of Leliana doesn't tally at all with yours. So we'll just leave it at that. Zevran can only be understood if he is genuinely befriended/romanced.

His friend/romance relationship takes time, patience, and the understanding that yes, he is just now starting a new path, and no, he didn't have a two year head-start on it like Leliana had at the time she meets the warden.

And no, I don't solely refer to Lel with my post. There is another one who expresses no remorse whatsoever about her murdering past. Two other ones actually.

[HoonDing]

sylvanaerie wrote...

He actually says that he NEVER kills innocent bystanders but it happens in the course of his hits sometimes.  Its not something he can control (it being their fate kind of thing).  Its a practical attitude he had to adopt to protect that core of him that was still empathetic.  He had no control over his own fate, it was kill or be killed.  He was indoctrinated to the Crow philosophy at the age of 7.  How many seven year olds do you know could resist grown adults making them do things?  Especially if the cost of failure is DEATH!  And when the PC gives him his first chance to escape that life (remember its kill or be killed) do you blame him for taking it?

Well, if he were indoctrinated similar to an African child soldier or a child growing up in a gang neighborhood, there would be almost no chance to deprogram him, at least not by only clicking a couple of dialogue options.

Assassins would infiltrate and eliminate targets from a distance or close with a backstab, never in the open with people around. Maybe Antiva's assassins are more like bounty hunters, and bards are the more genuine assassins.

[mousestalker]

Sabriana wrote...

I'm guessing you haven't had their party banter yet. Your impression of Zevran doesn't tally with mine, and my impression of Leliana doesn't tally at all with yours. So we'll just leave it at that. Zevran can only be understood if he is genuinely befriended/romanced.
His friend/romance relationship takes time, patience, and the understanding that yes, he is just now starting a new path, and no, he didn't have a two year head-start on it like Leliana had at the time she meets the warden.
And no, I don't solely refer to Lel with my post. There is another one who expresses no remorse whatsoever about her murdering past. Two other ones actually.

Not to go too far offtrack, but if you mean Morrigan and Shale, I think Shale was provoked a great deal. She knew she was a person and was treated as an object. Before that she had been abandoned for almost an eternity in the Deep Roads. That sort of experience changes a person.

I have no reason to back this up, but I think if Wilhelm had used her to kill darkspawn instead of as a walking umbrella stand and doorstop, she'd have been a great deal happier. She volunteered to become a golem to save Orzammar from the darkspawn not to pander to a fussy lucrosian mage.

<====rabid Shale fan.

[sylvanaerie]

virumor wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

He actually says that he NEVER kills innocent bystanders but it happens in the course of his hits sometimes.  Its not something he can control (it being their fate kind of thing).  Its a practical attitude he had to adopt to protect that core of him that was still empathetic.  He had no control over his own fate, it was kill or be killed.  He was indoctrinated to the Crow philosophy at the age of 7.  How many seven year olds do you know could resist grown adults making them do things?  Especially if the cost of failure is DEATH!  And when the PC gives him his first chance to escape that life (remember its kill or be killed) do you blame him for taking it?

Well, if he were indoctrinated similar to an African child soldier or a child growing up in a gang neighborhood, there would be almost no chance to deprogram him, at least not by only clicking a couple of dialogue options.

Assassins would infiltrate and eliminate targets from a distance or close with a backstab, never in the open with people around. Maybe Antiva's assassins are more like bounty hunters, and bards are the more genuine assassins.

Thats all the mechanics of the game being what they are allow you to do though.  I was content with it, and when I reached the confession about the innocent he (allowed to be) killed that broke him, it is always a touching moment for me.  At that point I know my PC and he have reached the pinnacle of friendship.  yea such a deprogramming should take years and hours and hours of psychotherapy but the game doesn't have Frasier on hand for us to consult. So I takes my challenges where I can get them and befriending Zev is never a waste of time.

BTW I love Leliana too and I feel that her faith in the Maker saved her from spiraling down Marjolaine's path.  Leli says she enjoys the challenge of the hunt, adopting a new role for the spying more than the actual killing (this was a banter conversation I think I heard once).  She will also admit she enjoyed hunting and killing the people you have been persuing too.  But if you don't choose to harden her, she stays sweet and abhors unnecessary killing.  It all depends on what you do with the NPCs how their different stories pan out.

Plus YOU get to change their lives, make them better people (or not depending on your choices) and they find the happiness they can in their second chance (or die if you kill them).

*Edited cause once again I type too fast for my brain to comprehend*

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 27 mars 2010 - 07:17 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

virumor wrote...

Are you referring to Leliana? If so, her modus operandi didn't involve killing innocent bystanders. Not to mention when she brings up that part of her past (I beleive this happens after dealing with Marjolaine), I don't recall her being giddy about it.

Oh, I recall quite well. She thought it was a game. Enjoyed it. Playing with people's minds and killing them. She admits she enjoyed the hunt, the chase, the game before she went in for the kill. She was very giddy about it, even proud. And, it was a lifestyle she chose, not one that was chosen for her. So she actually chose to become a scumbag murderer. And she likes it.

Zevran being 'genuinely sorry' may be your impression, but it certainly wasn't mine. Besides, I believe Zevran enjoyed the hunt too, when regular targets were involved. But since apparently for some odd reason he doesn't master the art of lockpicking, he's obviously at a disadvantage compared with Leliana, being forced to take out targets in the streets...

My impression of Zevran wasn't that he was sorry about his life. What he is, is resigned to it, seeing no point in kicking himself over a past he cannot change, but instead, wanting a fresh start, a new beginning. He is what he is, and his past he can't change. He can only look forward to the hope of a new future and using his skills for something more worthy. Zevran did enjoy the chase, the kill. Because that was the only life he had, the only option available to him. Kill, or be killed. he is a survivor. He seeks some sort of meaning for it all.

[Sabriana]

Yeah, Mousestalker that's why Shale was an afterthought. She did flip out while being experimented on, and who can blame her for not feeling any kind of remorse for killing her torturer. But it also goes into the 'they did what they had to to survive' credo.

Zevran did what he had to, and he can't change his past, only his future, I agree with Skadi and Sylvanaerie. It was kill or be killed. And yes, deprogramming such a damaged being takes a lot of time, and often it is useless. But every once in a while it works because the individual was able to protect a tiny kernel of humanity inside her/himself.

"This is a new path I'm on, and already it has been many things." doesn't sound like a scumbag murderer to me, and neither does "Someone needs to prevent your untimely death". How about "I've never done anything so worthy, like fighting this blight."

Edited because Sylvanaerie's finger vs brain thingie is obviously contagious.

Modifié par Sabriana, 27 mars 2010 - 07:25 .

[sylvanaerie]

Sabriana wrote...

Yeah, Mousestalker that's why Shale was an afterthought. She did flip out while being experimented on, and who can blame her for not feeling any kind of remorse for killing her torturer. But it also goes into the 'they did what they had to to survive' credo.

Zevran did what he had to, and he can't change his past, only his future, I agree with Skadi and Sylvanaerie. It was kill or be killed. And yes, deprogramming such a damaged being takes a lot of time, and often it is useless. But every once in a while it works because the individual was able to protect a tiny kernel of humanity inside her/himself.

"This is a new path I'm on, and already it has been many things." doesn't sound like a scumbag murderer to me, and neither does "Someone needs to prevent your untimely death". How about "I've never done anything so worthy, like fighting this blight."

Edited because Sylvanaerie's finger vs brain thingie is obviously contagious.

I love that line about him fighting the Blight.  Your PC has really turned his life around, he feels of some worth now instead of just a thing to be used, pointed at some employer's enemy.

[Liquidcz]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Oh, I recall quite well. She thought it was a game. Enjoyed it. Playing with people's minds and killing them. She admits she enjoyed the hunt, the chase, the game before she went in for the kill. She was very giddy about it, even proud. And, it was a lifestyle she chose, not one that was chosen for her. So she actually chose to become a scumbag murderer. And she likes it.

She never said she enjoyed the killing. Actually she didn't like it at all and it's even mentioned in the very banter between Zevran and her you people keep referencing here. She only said that she enjoyed the seducing, which she considered a game. Nothing to be proud of, still much better that enjoying killing, the pleasure of sinking your blade into their flesh and knowing that their life is in your hands. Sense of satisfaction, a feeling of power. Or is that the part of Zevran's dialogue you fangirls try to forget out of convenience?

[Sarah1281]

Well, if he were indoctrinated similar to an African child soldier or a child growing up in a gang neighborhood, there would be almost no chance to deprogram him, at least not by only clicking a couple of dialogue options.

Except you don't need to convince him that he should get away from the Crows and leave that life behind. Rinna's death did that and while he believes the only way to do that is suicide by GW, if he likes you even a little then he'll trust you to be able to keep the Crows away or be willing to risk incurring their wrath if he goes off alone. He doesn't WANT to be a part of them anymore, regardless of his feelings on assassinating.

Not to go too far offtrack, but if you mean Morrigan and Shale, I think Shale was provoked a great deal. She knew she was a person and was treated as an object. Before that she had been abandoned for almost an eternity in the Deep Roads. That sort of experience changes a person.

Shale won't even tell you what happned with her former master. Considering all the experiments, if she did kill him it may very well not have been intentional and considering the demon lurkig around that he was also experimenting on and who was messing with Shale...I blame Wilhelm's death entirely on him.

[ejoslin]

Liquidcz wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Oh, I recall quite well. She thought it was a game. Enjoyed it. Playing with people's minds and killing them. She admits she enjoyed the hunt, the chase, the game before she went in for the kill. She was very giddy about it, even proud. And, it was a lifestyle she chose, not one that was chosen for her. So she actually chose to become a scumbag murderer. And she likes it.

She never said she enjoyed the killing. Actually she didn't like it at all and it's even mentioned in the very banter between Zevran and her you people keep referencing here. She only said that she enjoyed the seducing, which she considered a game. Nothing to be proud of, still much better that enjoying killing, the pleasure of sinking your blade into their flesh and knowing that their life is in your hands. Sense of satisfaction, a feeling of power. Or is that the part of Zevran's dialogue you fangirls try to forget out of convenience?

Actually, she does say part of her loves hunting down men and killing them.  It's during the conversation where you can harden her.  I can pull the exact quote out of the toolset if you'd like.

[sylvanaerie]

Liquidcz wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Oh, I recall quite well. She thought it was a game. Enjoyed it. Playing with people's minds and killing them. She admits she enjoyed the hunt, the chase, the game before she went in for the kill. She was very giddy about it, even proud. And, it was a lifestyle she chose, not one that was chosen for her. So she actually chose to become a scumbag murderer. And she likes it.

She never said she enjoyed the killing. Actually she didn't like it at all and it's even mentioned in the very banter between Zevran and her you people keep referencing here. She only said that she enjoyed the seducing, which she considered a game. Nothing to be proud of, still much better that enjoying killing, the pleasure of sinking your blade into their flesh and knowing that their life is in your hands. Sense of satisfaction, a feeling of power. Or is that the part of Zevran's dialogue you fangirls try to forget out of convenience?

I agree about the Leliana thing, she actually is horrified at the idea that she enjoys the killing. You can turn her and make her enjoy it again or keep her sweet depending on your choices.

For Zevran I don't know how much of that is just boasting bad boy try to impress the girl attitude and how much is how he really feels.  Or for that matter if he feels anything about it after all that he's been programmed to do.  I choose to think of it like I do Leliana its something the game has placed there for me to slog through to get to the meat of the conversation.   Maybe its important maybe it isn't but my point is if I kill both Leliana and Zevran cause both are killers (and have admitted enjoying it in some capacity) then I kill the two rogues the game supplies me (outside of my own).  And thats a crap load of DPS I just pi**ed into the wind. 

If you go looking for killers in the game to hate, you will be hating on everyone except Dog.  And we all know how a fight between PC and Dog Vs Archdemon is going to turn out.

Wardens fight the darkspawn they take help whereever they can find it.  Kinslayers, blood mages, carta thugs, even murderers.  Anyone with the skill and the will to take up arms in the fight is welcomed in their ranks.  Both are skilled in what they do and if I can turn them to something more worthy to use their skills on them, then YAY me!

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 27 mars 2010 - 07:52 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Liquidcz wrote...

She never said she enjoyed the killing. Actually she didn't like it at all and it's even mentioned in the very banter between Zevran and her you people keep referencing here. She only said that she enjoyed the seducing, which she considered a game. Nothing to be proud of, still much better that enjoying killing, the pleasure of sinking your blade into their flesh and knowing that their life is in your hands. Sense of satisfaction, a feeling of power. Or is that the part of Zevran's dialogue you fangirls try to forget out of convenience?

Um, yes she did. Talk to her after you've done all the Marjolaine dialogue options, the one about Orlesian spies and the terrible things you hear about them. She does not deny it at all. She enjoyed the chase, the "game" and the kill. Especially screwing with people's minds.  And this you only learn after being in her company for a long time.

And I know exactly what convo you are talking about, with Zevran. I do not forget it. I also understand it in context. he is an assassin. That is his life. One he did not choose, but was chosen for him, a life from which there really is no escape. But he admits it up front, almost shortly after you meet him, and does not deny it, nor try to pretty it up.

Thus, in terms of "scumbag murderers", I much prefer someone who is blunt, direct, and honest with their past and professions than one who is evasive, deceptive, and only drops the bomb on you after a long time of playing a completely different person.

My point is, that others such as Sabriana have made, is that people do all sorts of moral and reasoning acrobatics to excuse or justify the less than stellar pasts of otgher party members, yet when it comes to Zevran, they go out of their way to basically convict and sentance him. And personally, I think the reasons are pretty obvious why this is done, especially when you consider the sort of persons who do this.

[Sabriana]

Yeah Ejoslin, it's a line the fanboys forget out of convenience, as well as the fact that out of all 4 killers, only Leliana freely and willingly chose to become a murderer.

And yes, Zevran was matter-of-factly about his prowess with the blade. It's the only thing he had, and the only life he knew. He was a 7 year old small child when he was sold to a brutal assassins guild. . He was bred to know nothing but murder, and if he failed he would die. I can also pull that line out of the toolset if you like.

He never had any power, not even over his own life. "I've never made a decision for myself, it was always made for me" should tell you that.

Yes, the 'blight' line is very touching. He finally found a way out of the mire he was forced into as a small child of 7.

And yes, he does want a shot at freedom when he realizes his suicide failed.