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[Axekix]

(TLDR at the bottom)
Let me preface this by saying I don’t mean for this to be offensive.  Really I’m just interested in hearing some different view points on the matter. 

I have never beaten DA:O with a female PC.  I’ve tried… I mean of the dozens of characters I’ve made, at least ½ are female, but the only 3 I’ve ever taken to the end of the game are male.  I seem to lose interest in my female chars after 1-2 contracts at best and reroll.

It’s not so much an issue with RPing a female.  I mean when playing DA I don’t play every character as “myself.”  I view playing DA like directing a movie.  I don’t have to put myself personally into the character to enjoy it.  The problem is it just seems to me that a lot of the plot points in the game are better tailored to a male lead.  Note: this is mostly concerning the HNF and CEF origins.  I prefer playing melee to mages.

First of all, there’s Alistair!  As a male he’s kind of a funny/quirky/at times annoying sidekick and friend.  I actually like him as a character.  But as a female he just seems so wussy!

An example of what I mean is, when you get to Lothering, he’s the senior warden, following Ostagar.  He’s probably the most experienced member of your team, and also (storyline wise) probably the strongest at the time (he‘s a temp so he‘d have an advantage over Morrigan, and he‘s been trained for field combat since he was 12).  A female PC at that point has some casual training (either from her father as a HNF, or from her long deceased mother CEF), but only had their first real taste of war at Ostagar.  So, instead of stepping up and setting an example, (in an age where chivalry was at it’s height no less) he dumps ALL the responsibility on the female PC.

This isn’t quite as bad with a male PC.  Granted Alistair’s still slightly more experienced, but he’s not necessarily stronger than a male PC at that time (HNM origin, for example, states that you beat Dairren at the last melee tourney.  Females don’t get that dialogue).

It just seems so… unmanly.  I wish he stepped up to the bat there.  I know there are gameplay reasons for it, but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Then there’s Sten.  I’ve always felt like the storyline reasons given for recruiting him are thin.  I mean even for a male PC, the thought of freeing and arming a 7 foot tall, self proclaimed murderer seems… unwise.  But really, as a female PC, Sten is like 3x your size (4x if you’re an elf!).  Unless you’re playing a mage, what hope does some hundred-something lb woman have of keeping him in line if he decides to get crazy again? 

Granted I know his story, but at the time my PC wouldn’t.  I can’t find any way for a female PC to justify releasing him.  Especially considering the only person you could really depend on for protection then would be Alistair (lol).  Yet, I don’t want to leave him because he’s one of my favorite characters later on.  *sigh*

Then of course, there’s the romances.  I really don’t see the appeal of Alistair or Zevran.  And I don’t say that just because I’m a guy.  Alistair is just lame.  I think I read that in the end he doesn’t even propose to your PC, that you actually have to “force” it on him at the landsmeet (seriously?).  And Zev comes off as really sleazy to me (though I’ve never really gotten to know him well in any of my playthroughs).  I could go with Lel, but I’ve been there/done that as a male already.  Am I missing something?

Last but not least there‘s Morrigan.  She’s probably my fav DA char overall.  So I’m wondering how her relationship develops with a female PC.  I know she’s not a love interest, but I like keeping her in my party, and having her play a big role in all of my games.  I’m kind of worried that she’ll be harder to warm up to with a fem PC (correct me if I’m wrong).  Also there’s the issue of the dark ritual… it just seems much less contrived to have a male PC who loves/loved her do it than Alistair (lol again).

There’s plenty more but this post is already way too long as is.  Can anyone give me some counterarguments to some of this?  I’d really like to finish a female playthrough for the achievements and to see the other side of the story, but every time I try I’m just overwhelmed by the cognitive dissonance.  I’m not being sexist am I? 

TL:DR- Dragon Age seems to work better with a male PC.  How do you make HNF/CEF work?

[NightmarezAbound]

Morrigan will eventually view a FPC as a sister if you get her to that point, my Female Dalish Rogue Archer build, got that reaction. and Hardening Alistair makes the romance a little more bareable so to speak. but he can't marry an elf, just keep her as a Mistress.

And Morrigan has a work around for the Dark Ritual, with a female PC.

[Marso40]

I can see where you're coming from with all that. Alister might have worked better as a character if he was a recruit along with you at the Joining, then it would seem more natural to have the PC sort of move in and take the lead.



I've played two female characters all the way through, but I've discarded a couple too. I've only discarded two male characters, both simply because I was new to the game and figured out that I had a really bad build. I recreated those characters later with a better build and finished the game with them. But yeah, I have a hard time RP'ing females as well, but I do it just to see the differences and such in the game.

[SnakeStrike8]

There's plenty of reason to play a female character. Let me try to change your mind (incidentally, I'm male in real life and I always use a male character foe my first playthrough).

We'll go with the human noble female, because that's the example you picked. Off we go!

1) Concerning Alistair's unchivalry: Really, when you listen to him getting whipped by Morrigan, you can't seriously expect that he'd take on the role of leader, especially when there's a member of Fereldan's nobility (presumably groomed from childhood to lead) that can take the job just as well. And he never actually says that he thinks less of women for being women, unlike say, Murdock who questions the wisdom of allowing women to be Wardens.

2) Concerning Sten's manliness: The guy's huge. I doubt very much that a male character could have subdued Sten if he went into a rage either. A female might have a harder time if it came to that, but a male wouldn't do much better either. And, as mentioned earlier, a member of the nobility would presumably have the force of will or charisma to command the loyalty, or at least obediance, of a regretful Qunari. And as a bonus, trying to convince Sten that women can be fighters capable of holding their own against men is hilarious.

3) Concerning the romances: This is really a matter of personal taste. I thought the Alistair romance was quite a bit more 'realistic' than any of the others in that it had a real ending (marriage) that went beyond one-night stands and flings in the wilderness, but to each his own.

4) No, Morrigan is just as easy to warm up to as a female. It's just that instead of wrangling with her feelings of love for you, she just becomes your buddy. She'll comment on your relationships with the romancable males in the group, among other things, and still get mostly the same dialogue in the endgame. And if you think press-ganging Alistair into seeding Morrigan is contrived, try having Loghain do it. That'll show you!



There. How does my argument seem received?

[tmp7704]

Axekix wrote...

Then there’s Sten.  I’ve always felt like the storyline reasons given for recruiting him are thin.  I mean even for a male PC, the thought of freeing and arming a 7 foot tall, self proclaimed murderer seems… unwise.  But really, as a female PC, Sten is like 3x your size (4x if you’re an elf!).  Unless you’re playing a mage, what hope does some hundred-something lb woman have of keeping him in line if he decides to get crazy again? 

Granted I know his story, but at the time my PC wouldn’t.  I can’t find any way for a female PC to justify releasing him.  Especially considering the only person you could really depend on for protection then would be Alistair (lol).  Yet, I don’t want to leave him because he’s one of my favorite characters later on.  *sigh*

Sten did "go crazy" at one point where adventuring with my city elf. And she beat him down into submission (a close call but still)  Sometimes a bigger guy just means easier target to stab

As for how to justify releasing him.. a common bond and curiosity. My elf had narrowly avoided getting executed for murder herself. Hearing the giant guy actually turned himself in afterwards and the way he acted made her wonder if there was something to his story too, enough to take the risk with him. And it paid off.

Modifié par tmp7704, 26 mars 2010 - 02:43 .

[sylvanaerie]

Actually I find just the opposite true. A lot of the fun of the game comes from the female perspective for me (but then I am a woman so its a lot easier). I kept starting and deleting several male saves till finally I just dove in with a Cousland Warrior and played him through. Now playing a male PC was a lot of fun but I related better to my girls.



As for Morrigan, she makes a great friend (comes to regard you as a sister if you get her approval up) and as she has TONS of gifts and its really easy to get her approval up with conversation choices (which are really similar to male choices) its not hard to max her out quickly. Remember you can still do the grimoire quest and I think tween the two turn ins you get close to 20 points? or more just for those.



If Alistair or Zevran don't appeal to you don't romance them. Nothing in the game says you HAVE to. Both make wonderful friends if you get to know them as such. IF you want to romance one or the other, I recommend hardening Alistair as his romance is much better, hes more willing to fight to keep you than unhardened Al is. Plus if you wait till after his personal quest to go to the tent the scene is a lot sweeter than just propositioning him.



And don't blame the poor boy for being a follower. That has basis in his upbringing (Being told he has no worth and being shunted to the Chantry which he hated) and also its a game mechanic because Alistair as a leader in the group would remove the choices you as the player make. He would just say go here do that and you would be compelled to if that were the case. Some metagaming is required at that point anyway if you want to develope a rapport with him.



Zevran may come off as sleazy (and I admit on the surface he is) but once you do romance him you see that there is a lot more to him than that. I have only romanced him once, Alistair is more my type but he does have a lot of merit to him as well.



I also have trouble justifying Sten. I have to run the conversation down to where you can see he does feel regret for what he has done (he let them take him and caged himself feeling he was weak for doing what he did). No woman is going to think "big strong guy can kill me" if she feels confident of her skills and the HNF and CEF (ESP the CEF) can be pretty ballsy when you play them that way. Look at Xena. She kicked ass and just did things like a person would, not a woman. Just react in that situation like you would if you were a guy. Big and strong may not last long against quick and deadly. Some of the nastiest fighters I have known were small and wiry and quick not big and strong. Size never impressed me (hehe I guess you can tell I was the nasty little fighter).



As for the DR...I actually have to think every time I do it cause its really hard for me to justify it on my girls. But then I think, I don't want to lose Alistair and I just do it or rather get him to though he hates it. I will admit it was easier for my male PC but it wasn't because he romanced Morrigan (she was just a friend, Leliana was his love). It was just easier to not ask Alistair to do it because he looks so mortified when its going on. Oddly my male playthrough is the only one I was able to deny her on and finally get the US ending with though my 'canon' story for him is Al married to Anora, Leliana and Roland going to Gwaren to be the Teryn and Teryna.



Well those are my thoughts on it anyway. Hope I helped you with some of your questions.

[errant_knight]

Heh, I don't really know what to say except that I disagree with virtually all your points. As a female, I find Alistair entirely unlame. Entirely.

You seem to be unable to accept that the female PC is as capable as the male without some kind of concrete proof, and yet there's plenty of dialogue in the Origin to establish her prowess. You also seem unable to believe that Alistair shouldn't be leading--not because he's senior--but because he's male. I think I sense some issues here....

Alistair steps back because he's basically been brainwashed into believing that he can't lead. He says that the group should go to Eamon first, but len quickly passes the decision to the PC saying he 'doesn't want to fight about it.' He doesn't believe that anyone will follow him any more than he believes he can lead. Luckily we can change that, because he's entirely capable when he believes in himself.

In any case, it has nothing to do with male and female roles, and everything to do with character self confidence at that time. Alistair isn't unmanly, he's damaged by a concerted effort to keep him from being a threat to Cailan's rule.

You may be thinking about Sten's strength in relation to the female PC, but this is a strong, confident and capable woman. My PC isn't even remotely worried--and she kills rather a lot od Qunari in the game, so apparently she's completely correct.

Really, I think your view of male and female roles and capabilities is getting in the way of your gaming.

I'm not going to delve into the romance thing. If I have to explain why Alistair is appealing, well, I don't think you're going to get it. I also don't see why you don't think Morrigan and the PC can be close. Do you think that female friendships aren't meaningful, or that sex is the only bond that creates a deep relationship? The dark ritual works just as well with a female PC--more so, in terms of being difficult, I think. You have to ask the man you love, who believes that sexual relationships aren't a casual thing, to have sex with someone he dislikes--to be unfaithful to the PC. It's difficult, and has a lot more angst to it than just doing it yourself. At least it seemed so to me, having played both.

I think you're not actually roleplaying a capable woman, but playing a man who doesn't see women as all that capable even though you're using a female character. You seem to be judging male characters not as most women would, but with a fairly strict male standard, as well.

Of course, that's just my impression, but you asked....

Modifié par errant_knight, 26 mars 2010 - 02:47 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The romantic appeal of Alistair and Zevran will be lost on you as a male, just like the romantic appeal of Morrigan or Leliana is lost on me as a female. But, if you read the myriad of Aolistair/Zevran love threads on these forums, you will see that there are legions of females who disagree strongly with your assesments.



1. Releasing Sten: You're a Warden. Regardless of your sex. You need all the help you can get. A female Warden is no more helpless than a male Warden. There is no difference there. Later on, his views on females are amusing. A confident female would shrug it off and remind him to get back in his place.



2. I never found Alistair "unmanly" because he didn't take charge. he is not a leader at that point. Nor would I want him to be. I myself find guys who are too quick to "take charge" and try to run the show far less appealing than those who will step aside because they are honest enough with themselves to know they are out of their league. I find macho bravado, especially at the expense of reason and honesty, a big turn off.



3. Zevran is not "sleazy". He has a very perverse sense of humor.



4.Morrigan: Playing female characters, I end up with her approval maxed, and gifts to spare, no problem. She actually warms up to and bonds well with a female PC. She mentions a few times that men are silly, predictable creatures easily manipulated.



5. Leliana seems to fall quicker and harder for a female character than a male one. Most of my female PCs have had to beat her off with a stick.



Other than Redcliffe, I am yet to find a part of the game that seems better tailored to male PCs than female PCs. In some respects, there;'s alot more that seems to favor females. Hell, the city elf origin if far better played as a female, as is the human noble origin.



I plan on playing a male PC eventually, but the few runs I've tried, i got bored and gave up. This game is great played as a female.

[Axekix]

errant_knight wrote...

Heh, I don't really know what to say except that I disagree with virtually all your points. As a female, I find Alistair entirely unlame. Entirely.

You seem to be unable to accept that the female PC is as capable as the male without some kind of concrete proof, and yet there's plenty of dialogue in the Origin to establish her prowess. You also seem unable to believe that Alistair shouldn't be leading--not because he's senior--but because he's male. I think I sense some issues here....

Not directly, no.  It's more that he seems like he should be the strongest member at the time.  He's more expernenced and should be better trained for combat given his background.  The fact that he's a male does play a factor I suppose, considering men are generally physically larger/stronger as well.  But add that to the fact that he's more experienced and he seems like he should be the one calling the shots, no?

When playing a male PC however, they make more of an effort to praise your prowess (Howe says something to that effect and of course there's the tournament reference).  The male PC just seems to have more support for being an accomplished warrior at the time.

Alistair steps back because he's basically been brainwashed into believing that he can't lead. He says that the group should go to Eamon first, but len quickly passes the decision to the PC saying he 'doesn't want to fight about it.' He doesn't believe that anyone will follow him any more than he believes he can lead. Luckily we can change that, because he's entirely capable when he believes in himself.

In any case, it has nothing to do with male and female roles, and everything to do with character self confidence at that time. Alistair isn't unmanly, he's damaged by a concerted effort to keep him from being a threat to Cailan's rule.

This is an interesting point.  I hadn't really thought of it that way before.

You may be thinking about Sten's strength in relation to the female PC, but this is a strong, confident and capable woman. My PC isn't even remotely worried--and she kills rather a lot od Qunari in the game, so apparently she's completely correct.

Well I'm not really talking game mechanics there.  At that point in the story, Sten is a veteran Qunari warrior and your warden is still very new to real combat.  By the end of the game, with all the plot "power-ups" sure, anything is possible.  But at that point it seems hard to justify to me.  The female PC is capable, but obviously so is Sten, and he looks like he probably has ~200lbs on you!

Really, I think your view of male and female roles and capabilities is getting in the way of your gaming.

...

I think you're not actually roleplaying a capable woman, but playing a man who doesn't see women as all that capable even though you're using a female character. You seem to be judging male characters not as most women would, but with a fairly strict male standard, as well.

Of course, that's just my impression, but you asked....

Ouch.  Well I guess I asked for that.  At any rate it's something to think on.  I'll post more in a bit.

Modifié par Axekix, 26 mars 2010 - 03:11 .

[Amber]

I think you bring up some interesting points, but as a woman I find playing a woman more fun (I know big surprize). I think the female romances are catered to appeal to a female audience (not all women, but I for one *swoon* for Alistair), and alot of women like the confessional-sharing-deep dark-secret-nature of Zev's romance (It's fufillment to the age old question of "what are you thinking?"). As far as Sten goes, I think that despite the fact you are playing a woman, you are also playing a very powerful person, so you don't really think about yourself as a tiny little woman who needs someone to protect her (and if I remember right there is actually some dialogue about you being able to handle Sten if he gets out of line). And as was mentioned, Morrigan considers you a sister, and actally has some really sweet dialogue with you, with no more difficulty gaining approval. I think the writers did a great job of crafting the story to appeal to a female audience just as much as a male one, and I really appreciate it as I'm sure many other female players can attest, since so many games are male-gamer centric. It's cool to hear a male perspective on the play, as I have only just started my first male character and I was wondering why people would find it more fun, because the story seems to make so much sense for a woman. I look foreward to seeing what changes with a male PC.

[LadyDamodred]

I agree with most of what has been said here. I've finished the game on lots of female characters, but no male characters, partly, I suspect, b/c I am unsatisfied with my romance options.

As the HNF is my favorite storyline, I'll go with that.

1) My HNF is kick ass and she knows it. She's a take charge kind of girl. So when Alistair wants her to lead, she actually prefers that. It is what she's been trained to do after all. As for the RP aspect of it, once she decides to make Alistair king, I think she spends a lot of time giving him tips.

2) Sten. Did I mention she thinks she's kick ass? Yeah, she thinks she can take him.

3) I find the Alistair romance to be awesome (hence my Alistair/Cousland centered fanfic), and yes, I harden him so that he takes me to bed instead of me having to proposition him. As take charge as I am, I am still a lady. I also really like Zevran for CEF romance, as I think it fits splendidly. And Morrigan turns into a sort of sister figure. Leliana.... God, I romanced her once to unlock the achievements and then when back and undid it. When you wake up to find her watching you.... Creepy.

4) As for the Dark Ritual, there is no hesitation on my girl's part. She loves Alistair. She will do whatever it takes to keep from losing him. She's selfish enough to want that one thing, no matter the cost. *shrugs*

I do have more trouble rp'ing 1 & 2 on, say, my mage, but it can be done.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 26 mars 2010 - 03:14 .

[Amber]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf said it all while I was typing.

[errant_knight]

Sorry about that. I genuinely hope I didn't offend, although I realize that I may have. I just couldn't figure out how to say it more diplomatically. That's not my forte. I do apologise if I went too far.

Modifié par errant_knight, 26 mars 2010 - 03:14 .

[Malanek]

It sounds like you just can't imagine a girl kicking ass. You mention the weight difference between a female and Sten, well that's nothing compared to the weight difference between a high dragon and the combined weight total of the entire party... including Shale!

[Axekix]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

There's plenty of reason to play a female character. Let me try to change your mind (incidentally, I'm male in real life and I always use a male character foe my first playthrough).
We'll go with the human noble female, because that's the example you picked. Off we go!
1) Concerning Alistair's unchivalry: Really, when you listen to him getting whipped by Morrigan, you can't seriously expect that he'd take on the role of leader, especially when there's a member of Fereldan's nobility (presumably groomed from childhood to lead) that can take the job just as well. And he never actually says that he thinks less of women for being women, unlike say, Murdock who questions the wisdom of allowing women to be Wardens.
2) Concerning Sten's manliness: The guy's huge. I doubt very much that a male character could have subdued Sten if he went into a rage either. A female might have a harder time if it came to that, but a male wouldn't do much better either. And, as mentioned earlier, a member of the nobility would presumably have the force of will or charisma to command the loyalty, or at least obediance, of a regretful Qunari. And as a bonus, trying to convince Sten that women can be fighters capable of holding their own against men is hilarious.
3) Concerning the romances: This is really a matter of personal taste. I thought the Alistair romance was quite a bit more 'realistic' than any of the others in that it had a real ending (marriage) that went beyond one-night stands and flings in the wilderness, but to each his own.
4) No, Morrigan is just as easy to warm up to as a female. It's just that instead of wrangling with her feelings of love for you, she just becomes your buddy. She'll comment on your relationships with the romancable males in the group, among other things, and still get mostly the same dialogue in the endgame. And if you think press-ganging Alistair into seeding Morrigan is contrived, try having Loghain do it. That'll show you!

There. How does my argument seem received?

Hmm I see your point with 1 & 2.  Though 1 kind of plays into my issue with appreciating Alistair as a love interest in point 3.  Any comment on the proposal?  I've never played that far as a female, but as I understand you just declare your PC will be his queen without talking to him first, no?

At any rate, I'm glad to hear that Morrigan is still easy to get along with.  I've seen a bunch of female players post about how much they hate her, so I was a little worried the fem PC/Morrigan relationship wasn't very well developed.

Modifié par Axekix, 26 mars 2010 - 03:27 .

[Axekix]

errant_knight wrote...

Sorry about that. I genuinely hope I didn't offend, although I realize that I may have. I just couldn't figure out how to say it more diplomatically. That's not my forte. I do apologise if I went too far.

Haha no problem!  I'm not offended, I actually expected more responses like that tbh.

[sylvanaerie]

Axekix wrote...

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

There's plenty of reason to play a female character. Let me try to change your mind (incidentally, I'm male in real life and I always use a male character foe my first playthrough).
We'll go with the human noble female, because that's the example you picked. Off we go!
1) Concerning Alistair's unchivalry: Really, when you listen to him getting whipped by Morrigan, you can't seriously expect that he'd take on the role of leader, especially when there's a member of Fereldan's nobility (presumably groomed from childhood to lead) that can take the job just as well. And he never actually says that he thinks less of women for being women, unlike say, Murdock who questions the wisdom of allowing women to be Wardens.
2) Concerning Sten's manliness: The guy's huge. I doubt very much that a male character could have subdued Sten if he went into a rage either. A female might have a harder time if it came to that, but a male wouldn't do much better either. And, as mentioned earlier, a member of the nobility would presumably have the force of will or charisma to command the loyalty, or at least obediance, of a regretful Qunari. And as a bonus, trying to convince Sten that women can be fighters capable of holding their own against men is hilarious.
3) Concerning the romances: This is really a matter of personal taste. I thought the Alistair romance was quite a bit more 'realistic' than any of the others in that it had a real ending (marriage) that went beyond one-night stands and flings in the wilderness, but to each his own.
4) No, Morrigan is just as easy to warm up to as a female. It's just that instead of wrangling with her feelings of love for you, she just becomes your buddy. She'll comment on your relationships with the romancable males in the group, among other things, and still get mostly the same dialogue in the endgame. And if you think press-ganging Alistair into seeding Morrigan is contrived, try having Loghain do it. That'll show you!

There. How does my argument seem received?

Hmm I see your point with 1 & 2.  Though 1 kind of plays into my issue with appreciating Alistair as a love interest in point 3.  Any comment on the proposal?  I've never played that far as a female, but as I understand you just declare your PC will be his queen without talking to him first?

At any rate, I'm glad to hear that Morrigan is still easy to get along with.  I've seen a bunch of female players post about how much they hate her, so I was a little worried the fem PC/Morrigan relationship wasn't very well developed.

On the proposal yea thats pretty much how it goes down.  I wish you did have an opportunity to bring it up pre landsmeet but its not an option. 

[Axekix]

sylvanaerie wrote...
On the proposal yea thats pretty much how it goes down.  I wish you did have an opportunity to bring it up pre landsmeet but its not an option. 

He doesn't propose?  Even if you harden him?  How lame...

[LadyDamodred]

Axekix wrote...
Any comment on the proposal?  I've never played that far as a female, but as I understand you just declare your PC will be his queen without talking to him first, no?

At any rate, I'm glad to hear that Morrigan is still easy to get along with.  I've seen a bunch of female players post about how much they hate her, so I was a little worried the fem PC/Morrigan relationship wasn't very well developed.

Yes, you do just declare yourself queen without talking to him first.  Alistair's only real problem is that he's so noble it makes my teeth hurt at that moment.  If you don't make yourself queen, he knows what his duty is and he will do, regardless of how much it hurts him to do so.  And the terrible thing?  This is why we love him!  Now, he is totally cool with you doing that by the way, so I never have an issue with it.

Girls don't like Morrigan?  Hmmm.  I don't like having her in my party when I need to talk to people, but I like her character.  My PC always wonders of Morrigan would have turned out like her if her mother hadn't been Flemeth.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 26 mars 2010 - 03:32 .

[sylvanaerie]

Axekix wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...
On the proposal yea thats pretty much how it goes down.  I wish you did have an opportunity to bring it up pre landsmeet but its not an option. 

He doesn't propose?  Even if you harden him?  How lame...

Its not lame. Why would the guy have to propose anyway?  Your PC is a capable woman, you can arrange and wheel and deal all kinds of outcomes there.  Again we get down to game mechanics.  Alistair won't be proposing because it takes the control of whats happening out of your hands.  Also for RP reasons Errant hit the nail on the head when describing his personality.  A lot of his problems stem from thinking no one will like him for himself.  Thats even one of the convo options after the Landsmeet when he joins you in Eamon's estate.  He asks you why you wanted to marry him, (or even if you were serious about it).

[errant_knight]

Axekix wrote...

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

There's plenty of reason to play a female character. Let me try to change your mind (incidentally, I'm male in real life and I always use a male character foe my first playthrough).
We'll go with the human noble female, because that's the example you picked. Off we go!
1) Concerning Alistair's unchivalry: Really, when you listen to him getting whipped by Morrigan, you can't seriously expect that he'd take on the role of leader, especially when there's a member of Fereldan's nobility (presumably groomed from childhood to lead) that can take the job just as well. And he never actually says that he thinks less of women for being women, unlike say, Murdock who questions the wisdom of allowing women to be Wardens.
2) Concerning Sten's manliness: The guy's huge. I doubt very much that a male character could have subdued Sten if he went into a rage either. A female might have a harder time if it came to that, but a male wouldn't do much better either. And, as mentioned earlier, a member of the nobility would presumably have the force of will or charisma to command the loyalty, or at least obediance, of a regretful Qunari. And as a bonus, trying to convince Sten that women can be fighters capable of holding their own against men is hilarious.
3) Concerning the romances: This is really a matter of personal taste. I thought the Alistair romance was quite a bit more 'realistic' than any of the others in that it had a real ending (marriage) that went beyond one-night stands and flings in the wilderness, but to each his own.
4) No, Morrigan is just as easy to warm up to as a female. It's just that instead of wrangling with her feelings of love for you, she just becomes your buddy. She'll comment on your relationships with the romancable males in the group, among other things, and still get mostly the same dialogue in the endgame. And if you think press-ganging Alistair into seeding Morrigan is contrived, try having Loghain do it. That'll show you!

There. How does my argument seem received?

Hmm I see your point with 1 & 2.  Though 1 kind of plays into my issue with appreciating Alistair as a love interest in point 3.  Any comment on the proposal?  I've never played that far as a female, but as I understand you just declare your PC will be his queen without talking to him first?

At any rate, I'm glad to hear that Morrigan is still easy to get along with.  I've seen a bunch of female players post about how much they hate her, so I was a little worried the fem PC/Morrigan relationship wasn't very well developed.

My PCs always take what Morrigan says with a grain of salt and tend to think she's playing her cards close to her vest, but it's touching to see her letting down her guard a little, and letting herself trust enough to form a friendship. Her life isn't one that encourages that kind of trust, so it means a lot.

There are a number of places in the romance with Alistair where the game mechanic of letting the player control the direction of the game interferes with character behavior that would seem more natural. This is one of the most pointed. It can be reasoned away by noting that while Alistair gains enough confidence to want to rule, if hardened, he is still governed by duty and honor. This leads him to have concerns that prevent him from proposing. He doesn't believe that happiness is something he can ask for or expect. I can't say more without spoiling it for you, but there are a number of surprises that can occur, some...not so happy. You can get around that by proposing yourself in some, but not all cases, and other options are available if you play your cards right. There can still be hurdles though. There are many possible outcomes to the relationship. I'll leave it at that.

Modifié par errant_knight, 26 mars 2010 - 03:45 .

[Merci357]

Axekix wrote...

At any rate, I'm glad to hear that Morrigan is still easy to get along with.  I've seen a bunch of female players post about how much they hate her, so I was a little worried the fem PC/Morrigan relationship wasn't very well developed.

A bunch of female player posted they hate her. (I'm sure you find males, too, that's not my point, just repeated what you said.) However, Female player does not equal female PC.
I really enjoyed playing as a CEF warden - often second guessed for being an elf, for being a woman it's especially rewarding to show them you are capable.

[Axekix]

Hmm, the forums seemd to eat my response to this post, so lets try again!

sylvanaerie wrote...
And don't blame the poor boy for being a follower. That has basis in his upbringing (Being told he has no worth and being shunted to the Chantry which he hated) and also its a game mechanic because Alistair as a leader in the group would remove the choices you as the player make. He would just say go here do that and you would be compelled to if that were the case. Some metagaming is required at that point anyway if you want to develope a rapport with him.

That doesn't affect your interest in him as a LI though?

Zevran may come off as sleazy (and I admit on the surface he is) but once you do romance him you see that there is a lot more to him than that. I have only romanced him once, Alistair is more my type but he does have a lot of merit to him as well.

I might try that.  Haven't given him much thought so far tbh.

I also have trouble justifying Sten. I have to run the conversation down to where you can see he does feel regret for what he has done (he let them take him and caged himself feeling he was weak for doing what he did). No woman is going to think "big strong guy can kill me" if she feels confident of her skills and the HNF and CEF (ESP the CEF) can be pretty ballsy when you play them that way. Look at Xena. She kicked ass and just did things like a person would, not a woman. Just react in that situation like you would if you were a guy. Big and strong may not last long against quick and deadly. Some of the nastiest fighters I have known were small and wiry and quick not big and strong. Size never impressed me (hehe I guess you can tell I was the nasty little fighter).

But he's a war veteran too.  I mean sure I'll ascribe to the whole "skill > size" philosophy, but given Sten's background he shouldn't be lacking in either.  I have a hard time believing a fem PC could take him at that point tbh.  Down the road after she's more battlehardened/powerful sure.  But he seems like he could be very dangerous.

As for the DR...I actually have to think every time I do it cause its really hard for me to justify it on my girls. But then I think, I don't want to lose Alistair and I just do it or rather get him to though he hates it. I will admit it was easier for my male PC but it wasn't because he romanced Morrigan (she was just a friend, Leliana was his love). It was just easier to not ask Alistair to do it because he looks so mortified when its going on. Oddly my male playthrough is the only one I was able to deny her on and finally get the US ending with though my 'canon' story for him is Al married to Anora, Leliana and Roland going to Gwaren to be the Teryn and Teryna.

Yeah, I've never asked Alistair to do it, obviously.  But it just doesn't seem to fit as well as it does in the male PC storyline, and it's too big of a plot point for me to decline (you KNOW bioware is going to capitalize on that storyline down the line!) 

Eh, maybe if I saw the actual dialogue with Alistair it would be easier to imagine.  Considering he basically hates Morrigan it's just... out of place to me.

[LadyDamodred]

I find it quite touching when the female pc asks Alistair to do the ritual, actually. It's kind of heartbreaking, for both of you.



Also, I recommend making a save right before you go to convince Alistair so you can look at all the dialogue options. He has some *hilarious* lines.

[Axekix]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Axekix wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...
On the proposal yea thats pretty much how it goes down.  I wish you did have an opportunity to bring it up pre landsmeet but its not an option. 

He doesn't propose?  Even if you harden him?  How lame...

Its not lame. Why would the guy have to propose anyway?  Your PC is a capable woman, you can arrange and wheel and deal all kinds of outcomes there.  Again we get down to game mechanics.  Alistair won't be proposing because it takes the control of whats happening out of your hands.  Also for RP reasons Errant hit the nail on the head when describing his personality.  A lot of his problems stem from thinking no one will like him for himself.  Thats even one of the convo options after the Landsmeet when he joins you in Eamon's estate.  He asks you why you wanted to marry him, (or even if you were serious about it).

I guess, to me anyway, a lack of self confidence isn't an attractive quality.  And from a male pov anyway it's definitely not something you're groomed to display to women irl.

If he proposed it would at least show he's confident enough to go after the one he "loves."  Forcing it on him kind of cheapens it to me.