573 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

Yea I always say there will be a child but when he asks I tell him "Ask Morrigan about it" or something like that. I never say she wants an Old God child. Guess there is a limit I think his mind can handle.

[Kryyptehk]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Holy crap! He does refuse! And that last line is kinda angry, "We are *done* talking about this."

O.o

Did you tell him that if he loved you he would do it? Because he accepted when I said that and I fully disclosed everything about the ritual.

[errant_knight]

SurelyForth wrote...

I actually just got Alistair to refuse the Ritual with my PC with whom he's at 100 Love. I have honestly never had this happen, but it did.

I told him that it would produce a child, that it would be an old-god, and that I thought it would be the right thing to do. When he said that I couldn't just ask him to do it, I said I would do it myself if I could (cue funny stammering) and then that it would save whoever killed the Archdemon.

His response was: The answer is still no. If it comes to that, I will gladly die to end the Blight if you don't. I don't know why Morrigan thought I would actually agree to this or why she thought she had to send you, but it isn't going to happen.

Now I'm a bit flabbergasted.

Whoa! That's really odd. I'm pretty sure that's the line of reasoning I usually use (you've paraphrased that last line, haven't you?), and he always agrees in pretty short order. I'm always completely honest, never persuade or say 'you'd do it if you loved me (which creeps me out . He always agrees.  I can't imagine how you got that result. Glitch?

Modifié par errant_knight, 27 mars 2010 - 03:43 .

[LadyDamodred]

*points to her edit*

Yes, the edit which isn't showing up....  Right.

If you choose all the nice dialog to break him in, he will not refuse.  Choosing things like 'wildest dream' etc... and he does refuse.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 27 mars 2010 - 03:43 .

[Kryyptehk]

LadyDamodred wrote...

*points to her edit*

Yes, the edit which isn't showing up....  Right.

If you choose all the nice dialog to break him in, he will not refuse.  Choosing things like 'wildest dream' etc... and he does refuse.

Huh, that must be what happened with my game. The first time I played I said the "wildest dream" line and told him about the child but remained vague about why she wanted the child. He accepted.

I redid it just a second ago and told him I loved him, told him everything about the child and then said that if he loved me he would do it. He accepted again.

So, I guess it just depends on how you start the convo.

[sylvanaerie]

ooooh yea I always start with those lines mostly cause I like the RP of them. But I always use the persuade too (Something like "Do you trust me?") just cause I don't like the way the other options sound in my head. I may try those just to see what I get though.

[SurelyForth]

errant_knight wrote...


Whoa! That's really odd. I'm pretty sure that's the line of reasoning I usually use (you've paraphrased that last line, haven't you?), and he always agrees in pretty short order. I can't imagine how you got that result. Glitch?

The flabbergasted line is me, but the one before that is word for word from him.

And it's not a glitch because I got it to happen a couple of times (and he definitely was in love with my PC, since I was able to say "I love you, you know that, right?" and he responded appropriately). I was then able to get him to agree with the persuade check. 

A soft intro definitely helps. I won't ever involve my PC's feelings for him or use his feelings for her, but I do usually avoid the most blunt starts. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 27 mars 2010 - 03:49 .

[Sarah1281]

Does Loghain ever refuse to do the ritual?

[Ziggy]

ejoslin wrote...

Em23 wrote...

Maybe I missed something but doesn't the reason flemeth saved the warden in the first place - so morrigan could have a demon baby with a new warden recruit - fall apart when the warden is female?

No, because she saved two wardens, and not only did the ritual need to be done, but the archdemon had to be killed as well.  Flemeth says something about the Warden when they first meet.

Ok so Alistair must come for the ritual, and the female warden to help kill the archdemon.
But there's still no specific reason the female warden should be saved instead of any of the more experienced grey wardens is there? Can flemeth see unrealised potential that clearly?
It just seemed a bit weak to me.

[ejoslin]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Does Loghain ever refuse to do the ritual?

Yes.  You can get him to refuse if you try.

[ejoslin]

Em23 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Em23 wrote...

Maybe I missed something but doesn't the reason flemeth saved the warden in the first place - so morrigan could have a demon baby with a new warden recruit - fall apart when the warden is female?

No, because she saved two wardens, and not only did the ritual need to be done, but the archdemon had to be killed as well.  Flemeth says something about the Warden when they first meet.

Ok so Alistair must come for the ritual, and the female warden to help kill the archdemon.
But there's still no specific reason the female warden should be saved instead of any of the more experienced grey wardens is there? Can flemeth see unrealised potential that clearly?
It just seemed a bit weak to me.

Flemeth actually says something to the warden at the beginning, how she sees something.  She doesn't go into details, but she obviously thinks the warden, female or male, will play a large role in the upcoming blight.  She dismisses Jory out of hand.

[SurelyForth]

Em23 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Em23 wrote...

Maybe I missed something but doesn't the reason flemeth saved the warden in the first place - so morrigan could have a demon baby with a new warden recruit - fall apart when the warden is female?

No, because she saved two wardens, and not only did the ritual need to be done, but the archdemon had to be killed as well.  Flemeth says something about the Warden when they first meet.

Ok so Alistair must come for the ritual, and the female warden to help kill the archdemon.
But there's still no specific reason the female warden should be saved instead of any of the more experienced grey wardens is there? Can flemeth see unrealised potential that clearly?
It just seemed a bit weak to me.

Well, she does seem to recognize something in the PC when you first meet her, and Alistair and the PC are by far the easiest to save- being in a tower rather than being swarmed by thousand of darkspawn.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 27 mars 2010 - 03:58 .

[Ziggy]

SurelyForth wrote...

Em23 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Em23 wrote...

Maybe I missed something but doesn't the reason flemeth saved the warden in the first place - so morrigan could have a demon baby with a new warden recruit - fall apart when the warden is female?

No, because she saved two wardens, and not only did the ritual need to be done, but the archdemon had to be killed as well.  Flemeth says something about the Warden when they first meet.

Ok so Alistair must come for the ritual, and the female warden to help kill the archdemon.
But there's still no specific reason the female warden should be saved instead of any of the more experienced grey wardens is there? Can flemeth see unrealised potential that clearly?
It just seemed a bit weak to me.

Well, she does seem to recognize something in the PC when you first meet her, and Alistair and the PC are by far the easiest to save- being in a tower rather than being swarmed by thousand of darkspawn.

I guess so. just bugged me a little since i much prefer playing female chars and the explanation seems to fit male warden so perfectly while you have to make kind of patchy arguments like that to make it work for females.

[sylvanaerie]

Perhaps what Flemeth sees is what will end up developing (eventually its the PC who convinces Alistair or Loghain into doing this). Morrigan admits her people skills are crap. Socialization wasn't a priority in the wilds. Perhaps she knew Morrigan wouldn't be able to convince them on her own. And if its a Male warden wouldn't that usually (though not always admittedly) be the one doing the ritual?

No guarantees either Alistair or PC will make it to the Archdemon so she needs what numbers she can get to eliminate the threat.



BTW...HOW does Flemeth know its a Blight? Is she able to hear the Song?

[Axekix]

Em23 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

Em23 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Em23 wrote...

Maybe I missed something but doesn't the reason flemeth saved the warden in the first place - so morrigan could have a demon baby with a new warden recruit - fall apart when the warden is female?

No, because she saved two wardens, and not only did the ritual need to be done, but the archdemon had to be killed as well.  Flemeth says something about the Warden when they first meet.

Ok so Alistair must come for the ritual, and the female warden to help kill the archdemon.
But there's still no specific reason the female warden should be saved instead of any of the more experienced grey wardens is there? Can flemeth see unrealised potential that clearly?
It just seemed a bit weak to me.

Well, she does seem to recognize something in the PC when you first meet her, and Alistair and the PC are by far the easiest to save- being in a tower rather than being swarmed by thousand of darkspawn.

I guess so. just bugged me a little since i much prefer playing female chars and the explanation seems to fit male warden so perfectly while you have to make kind of patchy arguments like that to make it work for females.

I was kind of thinking that too.  I suppose in the case pf a fem PC it was more that she was interested in Alistair and grabbed the fem warden since she was there as well? 

Though... I dunno, if her goal is to get her daughter to bare Alistair's child it seems like it would be smarter to keep the female warden out of the picture.  Eh...

Modifié par Axekix, 27 mars 2010 - 04:11 .

[SurelyForth]

Axekix wrote...
I was kind of thinking that too.  I suppose in the case pf a fem PC it was more that she was interested in Alistair and grabbed the fem warden since she was there as well? 

Though... I dunno, if her goal is to get her daughter to bare Alistair's child it seems like it would be smarter to keep the female warden out of the picture.  Eh...

Well, it would also behoove Morrigan to not treat Alistair like crap, but that doesn't happen. Basically, it seems that Flemeth has sort of precognitive abilities (it's demonstrated in The Stolen Throne) and she knew there would be a Blight. Beyond that, it seems that she didn't know what the GW situation would be. Had Loghain not interfered, Orlesian Wardens would have been available and it wouldn't matter who the Wardens she saved from Ishal were- there would be other options. 

And having a female involved with Alistair present actually works to Morrigan's benefit. That PC is more likely to want them both to survive the Blight and has a better chance of convincing Alistair to go through with it. Otherwise, if it was just Alistair and/or a male Warden who couldn't be seduced, a sacrifice wouldn't be quite as unthinkable. 

[Addai]

SurelyForth wrote...

He thinks she's beautiful but if you read some of the VO directions in the toolset it's clear that he does not like her and (even if he did just want to have sex with her) the idea of creating a bastard AND one with the soul of an old-god is something that he is not ok with. 

I so want to ask you to start a thread of "Alistair VO directions".   Please?   That has led to a lot of fun conversation in the Zevran thread.

To your question, yes I hate involving Alistair in the DR, and I agree that he loathes the whole idea and would rather die himself than do it.  Much as my wardens like to convince themselves that they made the decision together, she knows it was her decision.  However, this is how I think a male PC doing it is worse:  If you love Alistair or Zevran, you would do anything rather than see them have to die or to go on without you.  If you love Morrigan, she is going to leave you whether you do the DR or not.  If you go ahead with the DR, you are only doing it to save your own skin.  You also have to wonder whether your whole relationship with her was a sham.  It would leave me feeling very empty inside, I think.

But:  Recycled from another thread, this is Alistair hating on you for making him do it.

[Efesell]

If you love Morrigan, she is going to leave you whether you do the DR or not. If you go ahead with the DR, you are only doing it to save your own skin.

To be fair, the ritual is a fairly practical choice given that there are so few people capable of killing the Archdemon in this battle without it.

[Sarah1281]

Does Loghain ever refuse to do the ritual?

Yes. You can get him to refuse if you try.

So you have to put some effort into it? Because whenever I persuade him to do it, he says that I could have made him but because I was technically leaving it up to him he'd do it.

[Nhadalie]

Efesell wrote...

If you love Morrigan, she is going to leave you whether you do the DR or not. If you go ahead with the DR, you are only doing it to save your own skin.

To be fair, the ritual is a fairly practical choice given that there are so few people capable of killing the Archdemon in this battle without it.

Not to mention that some guys might be happy with the idea of Morrigan having their child. Even if she isn't going to let him find her. I suppose some might even take the "Well, at least she has something to remember me by. " approach with it.

Of course, this is speaking of people who romanced her.

[Axekix]

Addai67 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

He thinks she's beautiful but if you read some of the VO directions in the toolset it's clear that he does not like her and (even if he did just want to have sex with her) the idea of creating a bastard AND one with the soul of an old-god is something that he is not ok with. 

I so want to ask you to start a thread of "Alistair VO directions".   Please?   That has led to a lot of fun conversation in the Zevran thread.

To your question, yes I hate involving Alistair in the DR, and I agree that he loathes the whole idea and would rather die himself than do it.  Much as my wardens like to convince themselves that they made the decision together, she knows it was her decision.  However, this is how I think a male PC doing it is worse:  If you love Alistair or Zevran, you would do anything rather than see them have to die or to go on without you.  If you love Morrigan, she is going to leave you whether you do the DR or not.  If you go ahead with the DR, you are only doing it to save your own skin.

I wouldn't say that.  I mean if you're a male PC, and refuse the DR, either you, Riordan or Alistair will have to die (unless you spared Lohgain).  Yes you are looking out for yourself, but you're looking out for the potential future King of Fereldan as well.

And if you do question Morrigan's motives she speaks very honestly about your relationship then.  I personally never had any doubts about what she said in that scene. 

Plus, if you're in love with her the idea of laying with her doesn't repulse you like it does with poor alistair (lol at those pics).

[SurelyForth]

Addai67 wrote...

I so want to ask you to start a thread of "Alistair VO directions".   Please?   That has led to a lot of fun conversation in the Zevran thread.

I'll see what I can get started tomorrow. I spent most of last Sunday afternoon perusing them and some of them are pretty awesome, if not always terribly revealing. 

[sylvanaerie]

Axekix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

He thinks she's beautiful but if you read some of the VO directions in the toolset it's clear that he does not like her and (even if he did just want to have sex with her) the idea of creating a bastard AND one with the soul of an old-god is something that he is not ok with. 

I so want to ask you to start a thread of "Alistair VO directions".   Please?   That has led to a lot of fun conversation in the Zevran thread.

To your question, yes I hate involving Alistair in the DR, and I agree that he loathes the whole idea and would rather die himself than do it.  Much as my wardens like to convince themselves that they made the decision together, she knows it was her decision.  However, this is how I think a male PC doing it is worse:  If you love Alistair or Zevran, you would do anything rather than see them have to die or to go on without you.  If you love Morrigan, she is going to leave you whether you do the DR or not.  If you go ahead with the DR, you are only doing it to save your own skin.

I wouldn't say that.  I mean if you're a male PC, and refuse the DR, either you, Riordan or Alistair will have to die (unless you spared Lohgain).  Yes you are looking out for yourself, but you're looking out for the potential future King of Fereldan as well.

And if you do question Morrigan's motives she speaks very honestly about your relationship then.  I personally never had any doubts about what she said in that scene. 

Plus, if you're in love with her the idea of laying with her doesn't repulse you like it does with poor alistair (lol at those pics).

yea oh gawd I feel like the worst kind of heel when he looks at the camera like that.

[Gilsa]

SurelyForth wrote...

And one more time, this time not telling him it will produce an old-god baby, and he accepted. I usually don't tell him that (I tell him to ask Morrigan himself). So, apparently, the old-god thing does bother him enough that he would be willing to die rather than risk it. But I know I have told him that before and he accepted. This is bizarre.

Does he end up asking Morrigan himself? Does she say anything? I always tell him that it's going to produce a baby and deal with his upset reaction. He has to know what he's getting into -- I can't justify keeping a secret of this kind of scale from him without it impacting the relationship long term (trust issues, etc).

The screenshots of his apprehensive expression is exactly what makes me not want to do it at all. It's pretty much the same expression my husband had when I told him I wanted to start a family. (Don't get me wrong, he adores our kid.) Alistair is dealing with fathering a potential abomination with the woman he hates. Yeaaaah.  No pressure, right? =p

[sylvanaerie]

Gilsa wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

And one more time, this time not telling him it will produce an old-god baby, and he accepted. I usually don't tell him that (I tell him to ask Morrigan himself). So, apparently, the old-god thing does bother him enough that he would be willing to die rather than risk it. But I know I have told him that before and he accepted. This is bizarre.

Does he end up asking Morrigan himself? Does she say anything? I always tell him that it's going to produce a baby and deal with his upset reaction. He has to know what he's getting into -- I can't justify keeping a secret of this kind of scale from him without it impacting the relationship long term (trust issues, etc).

The screenshots of his apprehensive expression is exactly what makes me not want to do it at all. It's pretty much the same expression my husband had when I told him I wanted to start a family. (Don't get me wrong, he adores our kid.) Alistair is dealing with fathering a potential abomination with the woman he hates. Yeaaaah.  No pressure, right? =p

I think the only thing he asks (if you don't say the godchild thing but tell him there will be a baby) is if Morrigan plans to use this against Ferelden (I guess in a bastard heir to the throne kind of thing?) and she assures him (and I believe her on this) that she will not. Then he agrees.