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[sylvanaerie]

Why bring Jowan ALL the way to Denerim when it would have been easier for Loghain to speak to him about poisoning the arl in Redcliffe (or at a camp just outside the village) and this could have been done on Loghain's trip to Ostagar? Which may put it a bit more in alignment with the time line but still yes its pretty skewed up as a plot hole? Is there any posting from a Dev or D. Gaider on what the time line is on this? Or were the QA editors asleep at their keyboards when this was passed by them?

[CalJones]

I had problems with this, but in some other thread DG said there was a "passage of time" between the origin and Ostagar. Didn't say how long, mind you - after all, in some of the origins the army is already assembling. Could be a couple of weeks, I suppose.

I also like to think the party took a while getting through the wilds (and perhaps were unconscious in Flemeth's hut for a time) otherwise the whole Jowan thing makes no sense.

After all, during that time he has been running, sleeping in ditches, then caught by the templars, taken to Denerim, then sent from there to Redcliffe, in time to inflitrate the castle and poison Eamon. That's...quite a lot of stuff.

[sylvanaerie]

CalJones wrote...

I had problems with this, but in some other thread DG said there was a "passage of time" between the origin and Ostagar. Didn't say how long, mind you - after all, in some of the origins the army is already assembling. Could be a couple of weeks, I suppose.
I also like to think the party took a while getting through the wilds (and perhaps were unconscious in Flemeth's hut for a time) otherwise the whole Jowan thing makes no sense.
After all, during that time he has been running, sleeping in ditches, then caught by the templars, taken to Denerim, then sent from there to Redcliffe, in time to inflitrate the castle and poison Eamon. That's...quite a lot of stuff.

And (at least in the HN one) some of the battles have already been fought.  Fergus and I believe Bryce AND Duncan all say this if your PC brings up the topic.  Definitely the logic of catching Jowan in Redcliffe, bringing him all the way to Denerim, recruiting him as an assassin then sending him BACK to Redcliffe escapes me. I agree that it does seem like a lot of running around prior to the battles when it would have been simpler to say that Loghain recruited him just after his capture in Redcliffe.  They could have shipped Irminrick to Denerim from there and Jowan could have just gone on into the arl's castle.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 10 avril 2010 - 01:51 .

[Addai]

I suppose there has to be some adjustment for the fact that depending on which origin you play, more or less time will have elapsed between the origin and Ostagar. You would need more travel time from Orzammar or Highever, say, than from the Tower. It's possible Duncan could have other stops he needs to make on the way to Ostagar or something.

Modifié par Addai67, 09 avril 2010 - 06:19 .

[sylvanaerie]

DWSmiley wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...
Well Irminrick does say he caught Jowan in Redcliffe (they were spread out trying to capture him and Irminrick was alone).  But I think Jowan tells you Loghain spoke to him in Denerim ( I could be wrong) and Jowan says it WAS Loghain for certain because he recognized him from portraits. Time seems definitely skewed but the knight in Lothering you speak to (Ser Donall) will tell you the arl fell ill prior to the events in Ostagar.

This can only be possible if the PC and Duncan lolly-gagged a great deal on the way to Ostagar.  Maybe Duncan makes a few female mage PC's dreams come true on the way or something. 

OOOO I could go for that!  I was rather disappointed when he shot down my HNF when I flirted with him.  I liked to imagine he spent a few days 'comforting' Valora on the walk from Highever

Yes, not just mage PC's!  I've played so many times now that I've begun to forget how shocked I was at Duncan's death the first time.  I was so sure he would be my mentor throughout, though mostly busy with leader-type stuff while I was becoming the hero.  For quite a while I hoped he was only severely wounded and would reappear at some point.  Sigh.

That would have been AWESOME!!  Duncan was so underused.  I kind of hoped Riordan would fill that role but he seems to just keep dropping the ball over and over.  I see him and think "cute but stupid".  Duncan would have ensured that his charges were a bit more aware of things prior to going in to the Landsmeet.  It may have also ensured my PC would actually think twice before executing Loghain.  After all, if someone has to be dragon kibbles, why not make the man who opened Ferelden up to so much misery?  But at the time of the Landsmeet my PC doesn't know this so he dies every time.

[DWSmiley]

sylvanaerie wrote...

That would have been AWESOME!!  Duncan was so underused.  I kind of hoped Riordan would fill that role but he seems to just keep dropping the ball over and over.  I see him and think "cute but stupid".  Duncan would have ensured that his charges were a bit more aware of things prior to going in to the Landsmeet.  It may have also ensured my PC would actually think twice before executing Loghain.  After all, if someone has to be dragon kibbles, why not make the man who opened Ferelden up to so much misery?  But at the time of the Landsmeet my PC doesn't know this so he dies every time.

Yes, I had hoped Bioware was stealing a Gandalf plot line for Duncan but alas, no.  Riordan is no Duncan, that's for sure.  Dropping that "why not make Loghain a Warden" line on me right after the duel is lousy timing.  My blood is up and there are serious crimes to pay for.  If my first warden had been an elf, I may also have locked into executing him.  But I was the son of a dwarven king.  I still couldn't relate well to elf or commoner concerns but I knew that in a war you need good commanders and I believed (rightly or not ) that Loghain was one.  So he lived.  Then Alistair has a fit and abandons the Wardens and the kingdom in their hour of greatest need!  I was more disgusted with Ali than Loghain.  But my female wardens came to see Ali in a better light, especially once they knew how to help him grow a pair.  

[CalJones]

Ah, if there's one thing I've learned from movies, it's that mentors wear red shirts.



Still, I did think it inconsiderate of Duncan not to fill you in on the lovely parts of being a Warden after you'd gone through the joining. Perhaps there wasn't much time, but something along the lines of "Welcome...to the suck" would have been good. Alistair fills you in on the dreaming part but if you play a PC that doesn't get along with him and thus has low approval, you don't even get to find out about the "oh PS you've only got 30 years tops then it's off to the Deep Roads with you" part.

[DWSmiley]

CalJones wrote...

Ah, if there's one thing I've learned from movies, it's that mentors wear red shirts.

Still, I did think it inconsiderate of Duncan not to fill you in on the lovely parts of being a Warden after you'd gone through the joining. Perhaps there wasn't much time, but something along the lines of "Welcome...to the suck" would have been good. Alistair fills you in on the dreaming part but if you play a PC that doesn't get along with him and thus has low approval, you don't even get to find out about the "oh PS you've only got 30 years tops then it's off to the Deep Roads with you" part.

Except on the USS Enterprise, where a red shirt meant you are not coming back from the away mission...



There just wasn't any time for Duncan to fill us in.  He goes straight from the joining to meet Cailan and Loghain.  I assume he would have mentioned the 30 years thing shortly after the battle.  But he would have seen no need to tell Alistair or us about the ultimate sacrifice as that would never fall to a junior Warden.

[Addai]

DWSmiley wrote...

Riordan is no Duncan, that's for sure.  Dropping that "why not make Loghain a Warden" line on me right after the duel is lousy timing. 

Crazy thought:  Do you think Anora suggested this idea ahead of time to Riordan, while they were both at Eamon's estate?  I can't imagine her not working all the angles with the senior Grey Warden as well as with your PC.

[Sarah1281]

It might explain her knowledge of the Joining

[mousestalker]

It's a good explanation of why he butted in at the Landsmeet.

[Sarah1281]

And it would explain why he said that he couldn't make more Wardens when you first talk to him at Howe's but then mysteriously knows that Loghain didn't destroy the Ferelden supply: Anora told him.

[Thor Rand Al]

So it would seem if that was the case then all her well laid plan's where for naught if you didn't let her keep the throne and Loghain died, dang what a shame .  As she said she'd do anything to keep her throne and no matter what she had to do to keep it, she'd do it.

[sylvanaerie]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

So it would seem if that was the case then all her well laid plan's where for naught if you didn't let her keep the throne and Loghain died, dang what a shame .  As she said she'd do anything to keep her throne and no matter what she had to do to keep it, she'd do it.

Yea including throwing her Daddy Dearest under the bus as long as you support her bid for the throne.    Either she's too ambitious for her father's own good or she's too stupid. Surely she HAD to know the most logical outcome of the Landsmeet was going to be for them to call for his execution.  Treason tends to do that to people.

[devilsgrin]

sylvanaerie wrote...

DWSmiley wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...
Well Irminrick does say he caught Jowan in Redcliffe (they were spread out trying to capture him and Irminrick was alone).  But I think Jowan tells you Loghain spoke to him in Denerim ( I could be wrong) and Jowan says it WAS Loghain for certain because he recognized him from portraits. Time seems definitely skewed but the knight in Lothering you speak to (Ser Donall) will tell you the arl fell ill prior to the events in Ostagar.

This can only be possible if the PC and Duncan lolly-gagged a great deal on the way to Ostagar.  Maybe Duncan makes a few female mage PC's dreams come true on the way or something. 

OOOO I could go for that!  I was rather disappointed when he shot down my HNF when I flirted with him.  I liked to imagine he spent a few days 'comforting' Valora on the walk from Highever

Yes, not just mage PC's!  I've played so many times now that I've begun to forget how shocked I was at Duncan's death the first time.  I was so sure he would be my mentor throughout, though mostly busy with leader-type stuff while I was becoming the hero.  For quite a while I hoped he was only severely wounded and would reappear at some point.  Sigh.

That would have been AWESOME!!  Duncan was so underused.  I kind of hoped Riordan would fill that role but he seems to just keep dropping the ball over and over.  I see him and think "cute but stupid".  Duncan would have ensured that his charges were a bit more aware of things prior to going in to the Landsmeet.  It may have also ensured my PC would actually think twice before executing Loghain.  After all, if someone has to be dragon kibbles, why not make the man who opened Ferelden up to so much misery?  But at the time of the Landsmeet my PC doesn't know this so he dies every time.

i'd expected duncan to be the Warden's mentor too... BUT i was extremely happy when it turned out he wouldn't be. All of my Wardens, except perhaps for my dwarfes HATED Duncan for forcing them into becoming wardens. (especially my Human Nobles) Though some might have faced death, imprisonment or slowly being corrupted by the taint, Duncan's methods are horrible. there is NOTHING noble about Duncan. He may get the job done, and the Grey Warden ranks filled out, but he's ruthless, unscrupulous and as close to being evil as Loghain.

[LadyDamodred]

I think that's a bit much. In all cases, your character would die without him. And it depends how you play your character. My HNF wanted to be a Warden, my CEF seized on any chance to get the hell out of the alienage, and my DCF was all 'Suck it, Orzammar'. They were very much 'Yay Duncan!'. My DEF didn't want to leave her clan, but she is enough of a survivor to not want to die, my DNF was using him to stay alive long enough to get vengence. They were thankful he was there. My mage was the only one really thrown for a loop by it, and she didn't hate him. It's purely an rp thing.

Soldiers are tools and weapons. Duncan is a commander. It would be foolish of him in the extreme not to use everything at his disposal to defeat the Blight. I don't see that as him being unscrupulous or evil.

Edit:  Well, the DNF might become a broodmother, in which case, thank the Stone for Duncan.  And the CEF probably would have been imprisoned and raped for a few months before they finally got around to exectuing her.  So, yeah, big shout out to Duncan there.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 10 avril 2010 - 12:05 .

[sylvanaerie]

LadyDamodred wrote...

I think that's a bit much. In all cases, your character would die without him. And it depends how you play your character. My HNF wanted to be a Warden, my CEF seized on any chance to get the hell out of the alienage, and my DCF was all 'Suck it, Orzammar'. They were very much 'Yay Duncan!'. My DEF didn't want to leave her clan, but she is enough of a survivor to not want to die, my DNF was using him to stay alive long enough to get vengence. They were thankful he was there. My mage was the only one really thrown for a loop by it, and she didn't hate him. It's purely an rp thing.

Soldiers are tools and weapons. Duncan is a commander. It would be foolish of him in the extreme not to use everything at his disposal to defeat the Blight. I don't see that as him being unscrupulous or evil.

Edit:  Well, the DNF might become a broodmother, in which case, thank the Stone for Duncan.  And the CEF probably would have been imprisoned and raped for a few months before they finally got around to exectuing her.  So, yeah, big shout out to Duncan there.

Agreed.  And look at the look on Duncan's face when you play the HN Origin and have to leave your parents behind. That isn't a feigned anguish in his eyes.  Someone said on another thread he lost his family in a similar manner.  I really believe when i tell Alistair he seems a kind man if firm is the closest assessment of his character.  Duncan is a pragmatist in its truest sense.  He does these things for the PC benefit but WILL tell you that conscripting you just saved your life as a side effect. He needs warriors to battle the blight and will take what he can get.

The only one of my PCs who despised Duncan was my Dalish because she felt abandoned by her clan and that he could have just given her the damn cure instead of dragging her down to Ostagar "Kicking and screaming" and since HE actually said that I wanted an option to see her flung over his shoulder kicking and screaming as they came up to Cailan.  Wouldn't that have been a sight for the king to see! Had to satisfy my ire with a lame "I"m no freind of yours, human lord." response to Cailan's greeting. And his response made me giggle!

[Sarah1281]

Had to satisfy my ire with a lame "I"m no freind of yours, human lord." response to Cailan's greeting.

What does he say? My CE wanted to get on his good side so he'd deal with the Alienage, my DN would never dream of being openly rude to royalty, and my DC thought he might kill her if she was (certainly she had to worry that people much further down the ladder than the Aeducans might kill her for a slight in Orzammar). My HN, of course, didn't have that option and wanted him to deal with Howe.

[LadyDamodred]

I think of all the origins, he feels worst about the HN and the DE. I'm sure others will feel differently, but to me in those cases, your char really is a victim. You've done nothing wrong, and had everything taken from you. The mage origin is a bit like that, but depends on how you played it.

Edit:  I believe he says something to the effect of 'You've got a fiesty one here, Duncan.'

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 10 avril 2010 - 12:19 .

[sylvanaerie]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Had to satisfy my ire with a lame "I"m no freind of yours, human lord." response to Cailan's greeting.

What does he say? My CE wanted to get on his good side so he'd deal with the Alienage, my DN would never dream of being openly rude to royalty, and my DC thought he might kill her if she was (certainly she had to worry that people much further down the ladder than the Aeducans might kill her for a slight in Orzammar). My HN, of course, didn't have that option and wanted him to deal with Howe.

He kind of chuckles and says "You have a lively one here, Duncan. And I thought all wardens were stodgy priests!" 

The PC was just monumentally rude to him but it just washes over him like water over a duck's back.  I get the feeling Cailan was the human face to Anora's governance like Alistair is to hers when they are ruling together. 

[Sarah1281]

The mage origin is a bit like that, but depends on how you played it.

Ditto for the DN.

[Sarah1281]

Modifié par Sarah1281, 10 avril 2010 - 12:22 .

[LadyDamodred]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The mage origin is a bit like that, but depends on how you played it.

Ditto for the DN.

Eh, maybe.  Duncan seems to know dwarven politics fairly well, and while my DNF got framed, she didn't feel like the same kind of victim that my HNF and DEF did.

[Herr Uhl]

LadyDamodred wrote...

I think of all the origins, he feels worst about the HN and the DE. I'm sure others will feel differently, but to me in those cases, your char really is a victim. You've done nothing wrong, and had everything taken from you. The mage origin is a bit like that, but depends on how you played it.

Edit:  I believe he says something to the effect of 'You've got a fiesty one here, Duncan.'

Well, in DE you aren't really a victim if you go for the mirror yourself. Then you're rash.

[sylvanaerie]

Herr Uhl wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

I think of all the origins, he feels worst about the HN and the DE. I'm sure others will feel differently, but to me in those cases, your char really is a victim. You've done nothing wrong, and had everything taken from you. The mage origin is a bit like that, but depends on how you played it.

Edit:  I believe he says something to the effect of 'You've got a fiesty one here, Duncan.'

Well, in DE you aren't really a victim if you go for the mirror yourself. Then you're rash.

I always played it on the cautious side (I tended to think of Tamlen as the rash one who never fails to get the PC into trouble).  No matter how hard I tried though he wouldn't leave that damn mirror alone.