573 réponses à ce sujet

[Carmen_Willow]

Nhadalie wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...


Morrigan, after her upbringing, will probably never be able to see men as something other than a thing to be manipulated...yes, I've played her male love interest, but Morrigan ultimately chooses her perception of safety; i.e., "survival" and "power" over love.  With a female warden, she can have a friend without the procreation, biological thing getting in the way.


 

I have to disagree a bit about Morrigan. Her actions with the dark ritual can either be seen as her most selfless act, or her most selfish one. Depending on her relationship with the PC. If she is close to the PC, she is giving them a chance to live while putting herself into a situation that she is no way prepared for. Morrigan has no idea how to handle children, much less how to raise her own and deal with everything that comes with it. Especially not when she realizes that she's playing right into Flemeth's plans, and that Flemeth is never really gone. Even if the PC did kill her.

If she is not close to the PC, the PC has no way of knowing what Morrigan's motivations for the dark ritual might be. We have no way of knowing what she plans for the child, or what she is going to do. Whereas with the above situation, there is a lot more trust involved. Because you know that Morrigan isn't going to try to possess the child, since she finds the idea abhorrent, and it seems impossible to do so.(The special thing about the child is the soul. Flemeth's body swapping destroys the soul of the former owner of the body.)

I just see Morrigan as being terribly damaged by what appears to have been an abusive upbringing by Flemeth.  When a child has to choose between love and safety, they generally choose safety.  Morrigan learned that trying to love someone (as she probably tried to love her "mother") was dangerous and brought pain and suffering.  So she chose safety. Safety by identifying with her aggressor (if you can't beat 'em, join 'em) and by withdrawing emotionally from Flemeth as well.  As Flemeth used men, Morrigan learned to use men.  I would suspect that although she feels contempt for men (easy to manipulate) she also fears them (they can hit hard or if they are nice you might start feeling something for them).  That's why I think she backs away from the relationship with the male warden at a certain point.

I think with a female warden, she does develop a true friendship although even this would have been hard for her....after all, Flemeth was female.  I feel a great deal of sorrow for Morrigan because of all the characters, I think she (with Zev a close second) is the one most damaged by her childhood. I think it's why she's so prickly.  As Stephen King wrote for one of his characters "Sometimes, being a **** is all a woman has to hang onto."

[SurelyForth]

I think the hardest thing about the DR as a female isn't having a man who might be your lover (and possibly your betrothed) sleep with another woman, it's that you have to implicate someone who really doesn't want to take part in the whole thing. Because of this, it's almost harder for my females who don't romance Alistair to have him do the DR because he doesn't even get the benefit of being with his girl after the Blight.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 26 mars 2010 - 06:56 .

[Ceridraen]

Very true, Carmen! I found her friendship with my elf mage the most touching Morrigan relationship. (even more if you go with the cartoon version of her 'decision.') I think my mage would admire her, she'd care for my mage, & despite the ritual, there's apparently great tenderness still. There's even an implication that her ritual with your lover is for YOU, not her. (not sure I'd like this, personally, but... intentions matter)



However, when I first encountered them, I liked Flemeth. I even thought they had a rather charming relationship. I was sort of disappointed to learn later that Flemeth wasn't the good eccentric Mum I first believed. This was confirmed on my dwarf commoner, when we meet her mother in the palace, & Morrigan says something like, 'we have more in common than I thought.'

[Nhadalie]

Carmen_Willow wrote...


I just see Morrigan as being terribly damaged by what appears to have been an abusive upbringing by Flemeth.  When a child has to choose between love and safety, they generally choose safety.  Morrigan learned that trying to love someone (as she probably tried to love her "mother") was dangerous and brought pain and suffering.  So she chose safety. Safety by identifying with her aggressor (if you can't beat 'em, join 'em) and by withdrawing emotionally from Flemeth as well.  As Flemeth used men, Morrigan learned to use men.  I would suspect that although she feels contempt for men (easy to manipulate) she also fears them (they can hit hard or if they are nice you might start feeling something for them).  That's why I think she backs away from the relationship with the male warden at a certain point.

I think with a female warden, she does develop a true friendship although even this would have been hard for her....after all, Flemeth was female.  I feel a great deal of sorrow for Morrigan because of all the characters, I think she (with Zev a close second) is the one most damaged by her childhood. I think it's why she's so prickly.  As Stephen King wrote for one of his characters "Sometimes, being a **** is all a woman has to hang onto."

I agree with pretty much everything you said there. The only thing is, I don't feel like Morrigan was taking the safe route with the dark ritual. She was putting herself into a situation that could go wrong in so very very many ways.

Personally, I feel like part of the reason why Morrigan leaves is because she's afraid of how her friend will act towards her after the dark ritual. I mean.. In that situation, the female PC is the first real friend that Morrigan has ever had. And Morrigan understands just what she's asking of her friend in the situation that the PC and Alistair are together. But she sees it as being worth it, because it saves her friend's life. Even if the cost of it is that her only friend begins to hate her. Which is supported by the conversation you get with Morrigan if you choose to take her to fight the archdemon. You can talk to her, and get a conversation option about the ritual. If you thank her, she seems surprised that you are grateful about it.

Modifié par Nhadalie, 26 mars 2010 - 07:03 .

[Carmen_Willow]

Nhadalie wrote...


I agree with pretty much everything you said there. The only thing is, I don't feel like Morrigan was taking the safe route with the dark ritual. She was putting herself into a situation that could go wrong in so very very many ways.

Personally, I feel like part of the reason why Morrigan leaves is because she's afraid of how her friend will act towards her after the dark ritual. I mean.. In that situation, the female PC is the first real friend that Morrigan has ever had. And Morrigan understands just what she's asking of her friend in the situation that the PC and Alistair are together. But she sees it as being worth it, because it saves her friend's life. Even if the cost of it is that her only friend begins to hate her. Which is supported by the conversation you get with Morrigan if you choose to take her to fight the archdemon. You can talk to her, and get a conversation option about the ritual. If you thank her, she seems surprised that you are grateful about it.

That makes good sense.  On a playthrough when my male Warden romanced Leliana and never romanced Morrigan, Morrigan made the most touching speech about how she felt about him....blew me away and helped me like her a lot better.  I think taking her through the Fade in the Broken Circle quest and that moment gave me my best insight into her character. 

[Carmen_Willow]

Ceridraen wrote...

Very true, Carmen! I found her friendship with my elf mage the most touching Morrigan relationship. (even more if you go with the cartoon version of her 'decision.') I think my mage would admire her, she'd care for my mage, & despite the ritual, there's apparently great tenderness still. There's even an implication that her ritual with your lover is for YOU, not her. (not sure I'd like this, personally, but... intentions matter)

However, when I first encountered them, I liked Flemeth. I even thought they had a rather charming relationship. I was sort of disappointed to learn later that Flemeth wasn't the good eccentric Mum I first believed. This was confirmed on my dwarf commoner, when we meet her mother in the palace, & Morrigan says something like, 'we have more in common than I thought.'

I was disappointed too.  Up to that point, I thought, like you that they had an odd but basically loving relationship...then in the Broken Circle quest, it all became clear.  After that, I had no real qualms about taking care of business on behalf of Morrigan.

[Nhadalie]

Carmen_Willow wrote...


That makes good sense.  On a playthrough when my male Warden romanced Leliana and never romanced Morrigan, Morrigan made the most touching speech about how she felt about him....blew me away and helped me like her a lot better.  I think taking her through the Fade in the Broken Circle quest and that moment gave me my best insight into her character. 

I've yet to actually take her all the way through the Circle. I always end up replacing her with Wynne. Not to mention, her attitude with wanting to kill all the Circle mages grates on my nerves a bit. I like Morrigan's character, I just don't like having her around a nit picking about every little nice thing I do. Especially when my nice things benefit her.


The friendship speech always makes me tear up. It's just so very heartfelt and sincere. But it's still in character for her. I've yet to play all the way through on a male character though, or romance her with one.

[LadyDamodred]

Nhadalie wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...


I just see Morrigan as being terribly damaged by what appears to have been an abusive upbringing by Flemeth.  When a child has to choose between love and safety, they generally choose safety.  Morrigan learned that trying to love someone (as she probably tried to love her "mother") was dangerous and brought pain and suffering.  So she chose safety. Safety by identifying with her aggressor (if you can't beat 'em, join 'em) and by withdrawing emotionally from Flemeth as well.  As Flemeth used men, Morrigan learned to use men.  I would suspect that although she feels contempt for men (easy to manipulate) she also fears them (they can hit hard or if they are nice you might start feeling something for them).  That's why I think she backs away from the relationship with the male warden at a certain point.

I think with a female warden, she does develop a true friendship although even this would have been hard for her....after all, Flemeth was female.  I feel a great deal of sorrow for Morrigan because of all the characters, I think she (with Zev a close second) is the one most damaged by her childhood. I think it's why she's so prickly.  As Stephen King wrote for one of his characters "Sometimes, being a **** is all a woman has to hang onto."

I agree with pretty much everything you said there. The only thing is, I don't feel like Morrigan was taking the safe route with the dark ritual. She was putting herself into a situation that could go wrong in so very very many ways.

Personally, I feel like part of the reason why Morrigan leaves is because she's afraid of how her friend will act towards her after the dark ritual. I mean.. In that situation, the female PC is the first real friend that Morrigan has ever had. And Morrigan understands just what she's asking of her friend in the situation that the PC and Alistair are together. But she sees it as being worth it, because it saves her friend's life. Even if the cost of it is that her only friend begins to hate her. Which is supported by the conversation you get with Morrigan if you choose to take her to fight the archdemon. You can talk to her, and get a conversation option about the ritual. If you thank her, she seems surprised that you are grateful about it.

Just so you know, you can have that conversation without taking her to fight the Archdemon.  Just talk to her after killing all the darkspawn and right before you talk to Riordan.

[Bryy_Miller]

I have both male and female characters.

[Gill Kaiser]

Me too. I fail to see the OP's problem. In fantasy it's well documented that females are the equal of males when it comes to battle prowess, and I have no problem believing it.

[Aynslie]

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

Men actually have a larger threshold for pain than women.

Actually I believe women are given the greater tolerance for pain in preparation for childbirth.  Men have greater muscle mass, but the woman's body is made to carry and push out babies, and survive the trauma of giving birth.  So....I have to respectfully disagree with you on this point.  

As far as the female GrayWarden not being able to take Sten is untrue.  I mean...Lets look at the HNF.  She slaughters Howes men in Highever, fearlessly (at least mine) fights and kills darkspawn prior to her joining then afterwards in the tower of Ishal.  She faces and kills an OGRE.  And we are worried about Sten??  No way the FemWarden has that fight in the bag.  The CEF also slaughters the armed and armored guards in the Arl of Denerim estate, as well as being at Ostagar and killing an OGRE.  Your Female Mage faces demons in the Fade. It is assumed that the PC Warden is an extra ordinary person.  Male or Female they would own Sten, hands down.  As for keeping him in line my female characters have never had that problem and if Sten were the kind to have a "I'm not going to follow a woman" mentality the writers would have put that in.  He doesn't see men and women as unequal, they are equal in their respective spheres.  He is confused over your PC being a woman AND and Gray Warden.  

[Axekix]

This certainly balooned overnight!

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Nhadalie wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...


Morrigan, after her upbringing, will probably never be able to see men as something other than a thing to be manipulated...yes, I've played her male love interest, but Morrigan ultimately chooses her perception of safety; i.e., "survival" and "power" over love.  With a female warden, she can have a friend without the procreation, biological thing getting in the way.


 

I have to disagree a bit about Morrigan. Her actions with the dark ritual can either be seen as her most selfless act, or her most selfish one. Depending on her relationship with the PC. If she is close to the PC, she is giving them a chance to live while putting herself into a situation that she is no way prepared for. Morrigan has no idea how to handle children, much less how to raise her own and deal with everything that comes with it. Especially not when she realizes that she's playing right into Flemeth's plans, and that Flemeth is never really gone. Even if the PC did kill her.

If she is not close to the PC, the PC has no way of knowing what Morrigan's motivations for the dark ritual might be. We have no way of knowing what she plans for the child, or what she is going to do. Whereas with the above situation, there is a lot more trust involved. Because you know that Morrigan isn't going to try to possess the child, since she finds the idea abhorrent, and it seems impossible to do so.(The special thing about the child is the soul. Flemeth's body swapping destroys the soul of the former owner of the body.)

I just see Morrigan as being terribly damaged by what appears to have been an abusive upbringing by Flemeth.  When a child has to choose between love and safety, they generally choose safety.  Morrigan learned that trying to love someone (as she probably tried to love her "mother") was dangerous and brought pain and suffering.  So she chose safety. Safety by identifying with her aggressor (if you can't beat 'em, join 'em) and by withdrawing emotionally from Flemeth as well.  As Flemeth used men, Morrigan learned to use men.  I would suspect that although she feels contempt for men (easy to manipulate) she also fears them (they can hit hard or if they are nice you might start feeling something for them).  That's why I think she backs away from the relationship with the male warden at a certain point.

I agree completely, which is one of the reasons I find her romance so intriguing.  I suppose in a sense Alistair is in a similar situation with his childhood hindering his adult relationships, but tbh I hadn't really thought about it that way before someone mentioned it in this thread. 

I think with a female warden, she does develop a true friendship although even this would have been hard for her....after all, Flemeth was female.  I feel a great deal of sorrow for Morrigan because of all the characters, I think she (with Zev a close second) is the one most damaged by her childhood. I think it's why she's so prickly.  As Stephen King wrote for one of his characters "Sometimes, being a **** is all a woman has to hang onto."

Hmm, it does sound like the female PC's relationship with Morrigan gives its own unique perspective into her personality.  It's something I'm curious about, I admit.

Still, on paper, the Alistair/Morrigan baby still doesn't sit right with me.  Maybe that will change if I ever see the actual dialogue that goes with that scenario, but it just seems like a situation tailor made for a male PC. 

[LadyDamodred]

I find that as a female PC who is good friends with Morrigan that she kind of uses your feelings about Alistair like a cudgel to guilt you into it. You'll see.

[FaerieSophie]

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

Men actually have a larger threshold for
pain than women.

*ahem* And your scientific proof is were...? I'm talking about a real scientific proof, form an published journal, not an article from a website, because the media likes to distort this kind of things to suit their own needs, and they usually get away with it,they just need to use the words "research" or "scientifically"  <_<

The misogyny in this thread is just appalling... so is the biology FAIL and statistics FAIL. Human men have on AVERAGE ("average", is really that hard to understand this concept?) more upper body strength, this doesn't mean that every single one of them is much more stronger than any woman, always. Also, we are more than capable of developing *gasp* muscle mass! (really guys, did all of you were born like a body-builder or what?) and I'm talking about real life here!

Some people already mention it, but real 2H weapons are nothing like the ones presented in the game, the writers also seem to ignore the fact that being stronger actually means you are able to swing your weapon much, much faster, which in turn lets you more damage *gasp* physics!

I'm really tired of seeing these discussion on the gaming forums I frequent... *sigh*

Modifié par FaerieSophie, 26 mars 2010 - 09:06 .

[BubbleDncr]

DWSmiley wrote...

BubbleDncr wrote...

4. Morrigan Choice - I think this decision is actually difficult and important as a female. On one hand, you can either die or let your love die. On the other hand, you can convince your LOVE to sleep with another woman, which is emotionally hard to do all by itself, but you add on to the fact that you're possibly screwing the world over with a demon god child. So as a male, you can either be selfish and get to sleep with some chick, or be selfless and die. Female: be seflish but deal with the emotional turmoil of convincing your love to sleep with another woman, or be selfless and die.

My HNF Elissa tried very hard to find another way.  She hardened Alistair, told Morrigan where to go, convinced Alistair and Anora to a political marriage, made it clear to Anora that she (Elissa) was "still in the picture", and spared Loghain so he could make the ultimate sacrifice.  I hoped I could salvage the romance after Loghain died but alas, no such luck.  So Elissa went travelling with Zevran instead.

awww....was it that Alistair still was mad at you for letting Loghain live?

and even if that had worked...you're still making Alistair sleep with another woman...actually marry her in this case. so its still a pretty tough deal.

[Thor Rand Al]

LadyDamodred wrote...

I find that as a female PC who is good friends with Morrigan that she kind of uses your feelings about Alistair like a cudgel to guilt you into it. You'll see.

I know, that was ugh, she will def use it too lol.  After she said that to me I was so glad to say how cold and heartless she was and here she had just back in camp called me a friend lol. 

[Axekix]

FaerieSophie wrote...

The misogyny in this thread is just appalling... so is the biology FAIL and statistics FAIL. Human men have on AVERAGE ("average", is really that hard to understand this concept?) more upper body strength, this doesn't mean that every single one of them is much more stronger than any woman, always.

I don't think anyone was claiming any different.

Some people already mention it, but real 2H weapons are nothing like the ones presented in the game, the writers also seem to ignore the fact that being stronger actually means you are able to swing your weapon much, much faster, which in turn lets you more damage *gasp*¨physics!

If you're arguing from a female PoV I'm not sure how this helps your case.

[LadyDamodred]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

I find that as a female PC who is good friends with Morrigan that she kind of uses your feelings about Alistair like a cudgel to guilt you into it. You'll see.

I know, that was ugh, she will def use it too lol.  After she said that to me I was so glad to say how cold and heartless she was and here she had just back in camp called me a friend lol. 

See, I wasn't mad at her for doing that.  Like I've said, I see her and my HNF as alternate possibilities of each other.  She understands Morrigan using her feelings against her since she believes Morrigan is doing it b/c they are friends.  Morrigan is trying to save her friend's life and is using everything she has at her disposal to do it, the same way my HNF is trying to save Alistair's life and uses everything she has, including guilt, to convince him.

[Gill Kaiser]

Well, my HNF had no problem with convincing Alistair to do the ritual with Morrigan. I mean, it's saving both their lives as well as the soul of an Old God. To not do it just because they were engaged and in love would make no sense.

I believe my HNF's exact words to Alistair were "Your wildest dreams have come true: sex with Morrigan". Of course, she made sure Alistair knew that the ritual would produce a child and that it would be the vessel for Urthemiel, to not tell him what he was letting himself in for would be assholish.

[FaerieSophie]

I don't think anyone was claiming any different.

Yes, they were (I'm not talking about you, specifically).
Edit: You used the word "generally" which is not the same as "average".

If you're arguing from a female PoV I'm not sure how this helps your case.

It does actually. People sometimes claim that a 2H weapon is too heavy for a woman to handle, which is not true. The other part of my argument is more aimed at the game mechanics

(This board really needs a facepalm icon)

Modifié par FaerieSophie, 26 mars 2010 - 09:42 .

[Sesshomaru47]

SurelyForth wrote...

I think the hardest thing about the DR as a female isn't having a man who might be your lover (and possibly your betrothed) sleep with another woman, it's that you have to implicate someone who really doesn't want to take part in the whole thing. Because of this, it's almost harder for my females who don't romance Alistair to have him do the DR because he doesn't even get the benefit of being with his girl after the Blight.

I always figured she was a strong enough woman to sacrifce that part of herself and have Alistair complete the ritual so they could be together. Doesn't really mean squat if you're a man, Lelanna might be peeved but that's about it. Not like you're ripping you're heart out and feeding it to the witch.

[DWSmiley]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

On a playthrough when my male Warden romanced Leliana and never romanced Morrigan, Morrigan made the most touching speech about how she felt about him....blew me away and helped me like her a lot better.  I think taking her through the Fade in the Broken Circle quest and that moment gave me my best insight into her character. 

Morrigan and Flemeth's relationship is complicated, to say the least.  In her Fade nightmare, Morrigan knows a demon is trying to trick her and when it slaps her face she says something like, "That's more like it but too late."  And I'm thinking, oh geez, that's what it takes to mimic her mother.  And then you learn (supposedly) that Flemeth plans to possess Morrigan.  So it seems clear - Flemeth bad, Morrigan scarred victim.

But then I think back to when Morrigan joins the Warden.  I wish I could remember more of the conversion but at one point she chides Flemeth not to let the stew bubble over and burn down the hut.  Flemeth shoots back that it's more likely the darkspawn will have burned everything down.  Morrigan's lip trembles and she says that's not what she meant and Flemeth softens and says, "I know, child."  It  seemed like there was love somewhere in that relationship.

Plus Flemeth clearly doesn't mind getting "killed" and then you learn Morrigan knows her mother isn't really dead, so just how real is the struggle between them?  There are so many ways this story could play out.

[Axekix]

Sesshomaru47 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

I think the hardest thing about the DR as a female isn't having a man who might be your lover (and possibly your betrothed) sleep with another woman, it's that you have to implicate someone who really doesn't want to take part in the whole thing. Because of this, it's almost harder for my females who don't romance Alistair to have him do the DR because he doesn't even get the benefit of being with his girl after the Blight.

I always figured she was a strong enough woman to sacrifce that part of herself and have Alistair complete the ritual so they could be together. Doesn't really mean squat if you're a man, Lelanna might be peeved but that's about it. Not like you're ripping you're heart out and feeding it to the witch.

Well, if you've romanced her it is a very bittersweet moment.  The woman you love is telling you she'll have your child to save your life, but that you'll never see it or her again.  It had quite an impact on me the first time I played it.

[Thor Rand Al]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

I find that as a female PC who is good friends with Morrigan that she kind of uses your feelings about Alistair like a cudgel to guilt you into it. You'll see.

I know, that was ugh, she will def use it too lol.  After she said that to me I was so glad to say how cold and heartless she was and here she had just back in camp called me a friend lol. 

See, I wasn't mad at her for doing that.  Like I've said, I see her and my HNF as alternate possibilities of each other.  She understands Morrigan using her feelings against her since she believes Morrigan is doing it b/c they are friends.  Morrigan is trying to save her friend's life and is using everything she has at her disposal to do it, the same way my HNF is trying to save Alistair's life and uses everything she has, including guilt, to convince him.

I would think the same thing as you until she says the only reason why your alive, the only reason why she's with you is because of this ritual.  But then you get her goodbye at the gate and I tell her thank you because of the opportunity of finding some happiness and being able to live and she seems so genuinely heartfelt making her speech. 


After playing all the playthroughs I have, both male and female PC's, and even reading that comic I honestly don't know what to think of her.  Yes I would help her out if there was a an expansion or something and she needed it but as far as trusting her, I'm not sure lol.  As far as her becoming my bff, I'm kind of leaning towards the no, but hey that could change, who knows what the future might hold lol.

[Raiil]

DWSmiley wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

And the woman, given sufficent strength, can develop that muscle mass.

Men and women are not born with one sort of body. Speaking as a female myself, i'm on the taller side and stronger than most women and men of my general build. A woman with the right bodily disposition will be better equipped to use that two handed sword better than a man who isn't.

In the character creator, men and women are treated as equals in Ferelden. There is no reason for a woman to not be able to use the same abilities.

I should have been clearer.  An exceptional woman could become a better 2H warrior than many men but she could never become the best 2H warrior in the kingdom and, by the time of the final battle, I think of my Warden as the very best at what s/he does.

Well, even as I type this I'm thinking of one way it maybe could be "believable".  Perhaps the enhancements one gains in the Fade make her truly superwoman.  After all, as others have mentioned, swinging a 2H weapon is mild compared to sprinting in massive armor or leaping 10 feet to dispatch an ogre.  

Except for the fact that it's not just biological imperative that decides whether one is the most powerful 2h warrior/mage/juggling qunari clownmaster/what have you. Yes, that is a factor and it might be a very important factor, but even then, it's not set in stone. One woman many come from a line of soldiers and farmers and be predisposed to greater amounts of strength than a man of a artisan families. It's not just innate talent, it's learned skilled and practise. And if someone's playing as a 2h warrior woman, I would guess that they've got more learned skill and practise than anyone else, considering the run around they have to go through.