573 réponses à ce sujet

[SurelyForth]

See... now I really want to play through that part just to see the convo first hand.  I know from my male playthroughs that Alistair at least thinks Morrigan is beautiful, since he's straight up admitted it when "gossiping" with my warden

I just don't know if I could stand romancing him for that long...

He thinks she's beautiful but if you read some of the VO directions in the toolset it's clear that he does not like her and (even if he did just want to have sex with her) the idea of creating a bastard AND one with the soul of an old-god is something that he is not ok with. 

[errant_knight]

SurelyForth wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
I don't think it actually does compromise him. If it did, it would be possible to get him to refuse. He's very clear when he reaches a line that he won't cross, but he doesn't do that. I don't think he likes it one little bit, and I think he's worried about what it might mean in the long term, but the possible survival of the last three wardens in Fereldan is important enough to convince him that it's worth the risk.

In the same way that he won't fight alongside Loghain under any circumstances, he won't let his fellow wardens die if he can prevent it. Both are absolutes in terms of character, no matter how many mixed emotions the decisions may cause.

That being said, I think that to lie to him about it, use coercion, or blackmail him with 'you'd do it if you loved me' isn't moral and denies him the possibility of making an honest choice

I think the fact that it's harder to get him to do it if he's hardened is very telling. He won't refuse unless the Warden back downs, but it doesn't change the fact that he's having to cross several lines he doesn't want to (relationship boundaries, ethical boundaries, and personal boundaries) for something that might not even work. I see it as him compromising himself to ensure that Riordan and the PC have a better chance at survival because it's the only thing that might be done in that situation and he's the only one who can do it. With that sort of pressure, I think he might even be willing to call up Loghain's corpse to help out.

And if you back out at the last minute, even if he knows that it will possibly save you, he is extremely relieved. I think if it was something that he truly felt was above board, he would insist on doing it even if the PC says that she shouldn't have asked. 

I'm not saying that he doesn't REALLY wish there wasn't another way. Thing is, hardening him doesn't change his beliefs, it just makes him willing to express himself more forcefully, hence the more vocal argument. In either case, no one can make Alistair do things he is bound and determined not to do. If he was absolutely convinced the ritual was the wrong thing to do, he wouldn't do it, anymore than he'll accept Loghain as a warden. He doesn't like it, it feels like a bad idea, but when it comes right down to it, he decides the benefits outweigh the risks. You have ways to back out of the decision, in the same way you do with sparing Loghain, but at the end of the day, Alistair is less maleable than he appears on the surface.

Modifié par errant_knight, 27 mars 2010 - 03:03 .

[Axekix]

SurelyForth wrote...

See... now I really want to
play through that part just to see the convo first hand.  I know from my
male playthroughs that Alistair at least thinks Morrigan is beautiful,
since he's straight up admitted it when "gossiping" with my warden

I
just don't know if I could stand romancing him for that long...

He
thinks she's beautiful but if you read some of the VO directions in the
toolset it's clear that he does not like her and (even if he did just
want to have sex with her) the idea of creating a bastard AND one with
the soul of an old-god is something that he is not ok with. 

Oh definitely. I never doubted that, haha!

TBH I don't like the idea of Alistair on Morrigan either. It actually makes my skin crawl a little bit. Luckily male PCs never have to see that!

Modifié par Axekix, 27 mars 2010 - 02:30 .

[Efesell]

As I recall it doesn't even require a persuade check to talk him into it, so while he is obviously not crazy about the whole idea, especially if you go and tell him the absolute truth, it can't bother him THAT much.

[sylvanaerie]

SurelyForth wrote...

See... now I really want to play through that part just to see the convo first hand.  I know from my male playthroughs that Alistair at least thinks Morrigan is beautiful, since he's straight up admitted it when "gossiping" with my warden

I just don't know if I could stand romancing him for that long...

He thinks she's beautiful but if you read some of the VO directions in the toolset it's clear that he does not like her and (even if he did just want to have sex with her) the idea of creating a bastard AND one with the soul of an old-god is something that he is not ok with. 

Yea.  I don't like it either but I can't bring myself to just lie to him about it either.  The time I did that led to some funny lines after with Morrigan/Al but it just left a bad taste in my mouth.  Much better to be up front with him IMO and if it ends up destroying what the PC and Al have in the long run at least she could say she was honest with him.  Its not like he's stupid and doesn't know where babies come from (Wynne's opinion on that notwithstanding) so even if you lie to him, he is aware its a strong possibility.  I think it may be actually easier to convince him if he is hardened.  He seems more willing to do things that take him out of his comfort zone to keep what you have.  (the whole Mistress/dumping decision after Landsmeet).

[sylvanaerie]

There is a persuade check but I don't know if you have to make it. I always choose it cause its the one that sounds more like "You do trust me right?" as opposed to "STFU and just do what I say" which is the feeling I get from the other options.

[Efesell]

Okay yeah, double checked. There is the persuade option to ask if he trusts you which gets him to cave pretty much immediately.

He'll still do it without, it just takes a little more reasoning.

[Gill Kaiser]

Axekix wrote...

TBH I don't like the idea of Alistair on Morrigan either. It actually makes my skin crawl a little bit. Luckily male PCs never have to see that!

See, I always thought there was a bit of a Slap Slap Kiss thing going on between those two.

[sylvanaerie]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Axekix wrote...

TBH I don't like the idea of Alistair on Morrigan either. It actually makes my skin crawl a little bit. Luckily male PCs never have to see that!

See, I always thought there was a bit of a Slap Slap Kiss thing going on between those two.

NOOOOO oh gawd no.  Alistair hates it.  One of his lines (jokingly but very tellingly said) is "Be killed by the Archdemon or sleep with Morrigan. How does one make a choice like that?"  He really doesn't like her and I cringe when I hear it.  At that point I almost lose my determination and almost say "never mind".

Loghain is even more reluctant if thats possible.

Really makes me giggle when I go through the Teagan flirts as a Mage cause I think of their reactions to bedding Morrigan. 

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 27 mars 2010 - 02:54 .

[SurelyForth]

I actually just got Alistair to refuse the Ritual with my PC with whom he's at 100 Love. I have honestly never had this happen, but it did.

I told him that it would produce a child, that it would be an old-god, and that I thought it would be the right thing to do. When he said that I couldn't just ask him to do it, I said I would do it myself if I could (cue funny stammering) and then that it would save whoever killed the Archdemon.

His response was: The answer is still no. If it comes to that, I will gladly die to end the Blight if you won't. I don't know why Morrigan thought I would actually agree to this or why she thought she had to send you, but it isn't going to happen.

Now I'm a bit flabbergasted.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 27 mars 2010 - 03:40 .

[Gill Kaiser]

sylvanaerie wrote...

NOOOOO oh gawd no.  Alistair hates it.  One of his lines (jokingly but very tellingly said) is "Be killed by the Archdemon or sleep with Morrigan. How does one make a choice like that?"  He really doesn't like her and I cringe when I hear it.  At that point I almost lose my determination and almost say "never mind".

Sure, he says that. He may even believe it... but I maintain that he and Morrigan totally want each other.

Modifié par Gill Kaiser, 27 mars 2010 - 03:01 .

[sylvanaerie]

SurelyForth wrote...

I actually just got Alistair to refuse the Ritual with my PC with whom he's at 100 Love. I have honestly never had this happen, but it did.

I told him that it would produce a child, that it would be an old-god, and that I thought it would be the right thing to do. When he said that I couldn't just ask him to do it, I said I would do it myself if I could (cue funny stammering) and then that it would save whoever killed the Archdemon.

His response was: The answer is still no. If it comes to that, I will gladly die to end the Blight if you don't. I don't know why Morrigan thought I would actually agree to this or why she thought she had to send you, but it isn't going to happen.

Now I'm a bit flabbergasted.

Is that without doing the persuade? I've never had him refuse (but I always use the persuade too).

[Chasseresse]

Wow Surely, I didn't think that was even possible. I thought it would ALWAYS do it if in love with the PC. Was this on hardened or unhardened?

[SurelyForth]

It was hardened, without the persuade check. I never use the persuade check in that convo and I've never had him refuse.

[Efesell]

SurelyForth wrote...

I actually just got Alistair to refuse the Ritual with my PC with whom he's at 100 Love. I have honestly never had this happen, but it did.

I told him that it would produce a child, that it would be an old-god, and that I thought it would be the right thing to do. When he said that I couldn't just ask him to do it, I said I would do it myself if I could (cue funny stammering) and then that it would save whoever killed the Archdemon.

His response was: The answer is still no. If it comes to that, I will gladly die to end the Blight if you don't. I don't know why Morrigan thought I would actually agree to this or why she thought she had to send you, but it isn't going to happen.

Now I'm a bit flabbergasted.

That's.. odd.
I just did with pretty much the same situation and he went along with it. Wasn't Hardened though, so maybe that's it.

Modifié par Efesell, 27 mars 2010 - 03:05 .

[ejoslin]

SurelyForth wrote...

I actually just got Alistair to refuse the Ritual with my PC with whom he's at 100 Love. I have honestly never had this happen, but it did.

I told him that it would produce a child, that it would be an old-god, and that I thought it would be the right thing to do. When he said that I couldn't just ask him to do it, I said I would do it myself if I could (cue funny stammering) and then that it would save whoever killed the Archdemon.

His response was: The answer is still no. If it comes to that, I will gladly die to end the Blight if you don't. I don't know why Morrigan thought I would actually agree to this or why she thought she had to send you, but it isn't going to happen.

Now I'm a bit flabbergasted.

!!! Wow! I just went through the dialogs in the toolset and it certainly is possible.  It's actually interesting the way that whole thing is set up.  Well, live and learn.

Edit: and a very interesting thing is I'm not seeing any "if alistair changed" comments.  I haven't looked too hard for one, though.  But it doesn't seem to be a huge factor.

Second edit: I finally found an "if alistair changed".  But the way it's set up is interesting.  Every answer you give is assigned a certain amount of points.  Increased or decreased.  And there's various thresholds you have to hit before he agrees.  This seems to be dependent on approval mainly, though a couple are based on if he's changed.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 mars 2010 - 03:18 .

[SurelyForth]

Efesell wrote...

That's.. odd.
I just did with pretty much the same situation and he went along with it. Wasn't Hardened though, so maybe that's it.

If he's not hardened, all you have to do is tell him it's a good idea and he'll do it.

I just tried it again, choosing to tell him that it would save whoever killed the archdemon early in the conversation and he still refused.

And one more time, this time not telling him it will produce an old-god baby, and he accepted. I usually don't tell him that (I tell him to ask Morrigan himself). So, apparently, the old-god thing does bother him enough that he would be willing to die rather than risk it. But I know I have told him that before and he accepted. This is bizarre.

So I'm thinking of the wrong persuade check. I don't do the first one, but I will do the second and that works even if you tell him that Morrigan wants an old-god baby. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 27 mars 2010 - 03:19 .

[Efesell]

Well, non-hardened was still very reluctant until reminded that someone would die otherwise. Everything else he tried to fight.

[tmp7704]

SurelyForth wrote...

I actually just got Alistair to refuse the Ritual with my PC with whom he's at 100 Love. I have honestly never had this happen, but it did.

I told him that it would produce a child, that it would be an old-god, and that I thought it would be the right thing to do. When he said that I couldn't just ask him to do it, I said I would do it myself if I could (cue funny stammering) and then that it would save whoever killed the Archdemon.

The ritual thing is set up a little bit like the Landsmeet -- each bit of info you tell Alistair and each argument you make can affect the final outcome by small amount one way or the other.

It actually helps if you don't let him think too much about it and not reveal too much -- pique his interest, give a vague explanation and push him to agree because there's no time to think it through and it should do

[Kryyptehk]

SurelyForth wrote...

It was hardened, without the persuade check. I never use the persuade check in that convo and I've never had him refuse.

Huh, I'm gonna check that out on my Hardened Alistair king playthrough.

I got him to agree by saying if he loved me he would do it. I've never had to resort to that before. But it did yield a very cute line about him being wrapped around my finger.

[SurelyForth]

tmp7704 wrote...

The ritual thing is set up a little bit like the Landsmeet -- each bit of info you tell Alistair and each argument you make can affect the final outcome by small amount one way or the other.

It actually helps if you don't let him think too much about it and not reveal too much -- pique his interest, give a vague explanation and push him to agree because there's no time to think it through and it should do

Yeah, but I don't like to mislead him via selective omission and I don't really care much for the persuade options (the last set of choices are all kind of...emotionally blackmail-y in a way so that persuade isn't as egregious to me). I feel like it's way too big a decision for me to make for him, so full-disclosure it is. 

[Ziggy]

Maybe I missed something but doesn't the reason flemeth saved the warden in the first place - so morrigan could have a demon baby with a new warden recruit - fall apart when the warden is female?

[SurelyForth]

Em23 wrote...

Maybe I missed something but doesn't the reason flemeth saved the warden in the first place - so morrigan could have a demon baby with a new warden recruit - fall apart when the warden is female?

No, because they didn't have a specific time-frame. Morrigan had no way of knowing when the opportunity would arise and there was always the chance that more Wardens would be created or be sent in from another country. By not sending her because the PC is female (and even discounting poor Ali) they would never have a chance. 

[ejoslin]

Em23 wrote...

Maybe I missed something but doesn't the reason flemeth saved the warden in the first place - so morrigan could have a demon baby with a new warden recruit - fall apart when the warden is female?

No, because she saved two wardens, and not only did the ritual need to be done, but the archdemon had to be killed as well.  Flemeth says something about the Warden when they first meet.

[LadyDamodred]

Holy crap! He does refuse! And that last line is kinda angry, "We are *done* talking about this."

O.o

Edit:  He will not refuse if you chose all the nice ways of breaking him into it.  This was a hardened Alistair, btw.  Choosing things like 'wildest dream' comment etc... = No.  Asking him is he's all right, telling him you love him = Yes.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 27 mars 2010 - 03:41 .