156 réponses à ce sujet

[GuardianAngel470]

implodinggoat wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Perhaps that planet did not have the kind of atmosphere that earth has? I assume that not all planet atmospheres are created equal though I did think the same thing as the original poster 1st time through.

I think they also kind of did a bit of a tribute to 2001 a space odyessy in that scene as Shepard thrashes around grabbing for his air line much like Frank Pool did when HAL killed him.

They density of the atmosphere is irrelevant.  If you are saying the composition of the atmosphere is more prone to ignition then you have a point, it may be.  But if not then terminal velocity is terminal velocity, variable depending on the density of the atmosphere if the speed changes then so does the ignition point.

Depends more on gravity, which you can see from the scan.

It's a give and take relationship.  Gravity wants to keep accelerating an object but the density of the air determines how fast an object can move.  I guess I left the gravity part unsaid when I shouldn't have.

Shepard was quite far from the planet when he was blown out of the Normandy.  So the whole time he was drifting towards the planet gravity would be accelerating his entry speed through a vacuum (hence no atmospheric friction to slow his acceleration down) meaning that he would likely be traveling at a very high speed before he entered the atmosphere.   If the density of the atmosphere weren't sufficient to slow his descent then his body would be splattered across a square mile upon impact and if it were nearly all of the momentum would be converted into heat by atmospheric friction and he would be incinerated.

In either case the damage to his brain would be sufficient to prevent the reconstruction of his memory and personality.   If Shepard's body did enter the atmosphere then the "Shepard" in ME2 is really just a Cerberus construct with artifical memories.   That seems unlikely though since the Redemption comic demonstrates that Cerberus went to considerable lengths to retrieve Shepard's body.   So either the real Shepard is a smear on the surface of some backwoods planet and your character in ME2 is in reality Shepard V 2.0 or his body never entered the atmosphere, take your pick.

He still wouldn't be going fast enough to be incinerated.  Also, you can see in the cinematic that the atmosphere has an immediate effect on shepard, implying that he is closer to the planet then you believe.  And the fact that cerberus shouldn't be able to bring him back is a useless thing to argue.  As it stands the excuse for that is, "It's the future, they can do anything."  Can a human brain maintain it's memories after losing oxygen for a prolonged period of time and dying? Not in real life, no.  That is a "Wizard did it" Scenario.  What isn't a wizard did it scenario is the effects of the atmosphere on shepards body.  That is what we are arguing.

[Xaijin]

No.

The Carnifex fires a giant slow ass bullet, which goes right through N7 specc'ed armor, much less Conrad's replica.

I'd be all for saying that Shepard never entered the atmosphere - however, we need to explain why the N7 helmet was found so close to the crash site (and why Shepard's shoulderplate was too) only to remain somewhat intact.

The helmet was removed to verify brain integrity and simply tossed away during extraction... which is stupid, but far less stupid than saying shepard hit the ground... maybe he just skipped off the upper atmo and went on.... Honestly, they should have gone with the Legion intro, would have been far FAR better.

Problem is he's clearly fried, as we see from the intro... can't imagine hitting solid packed ice would do a body any good either.

Modifié par Xaijin, 26 mars 2010 - 04:52 .

[implodinggoat]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

He still wouldn't be going fast enough to be incinerated.  Also, you can see in the cinematic that the atmosphere has an immediate effect on shepard, implying that he is closer to the planet then you believe.  And the fact that cerberus shouldn't be able to bring him back is a useless thing to argue.  As it stands the excuse for that is, "It's the future, they can do anything."  Can a human brain maintain it's memories after losing oxygen for a prolonged period of time and dying? Not in real life, no.  That is a "Wizard did it" Scenario.  What isn't a wizard did it scenario is the effects of the atmosphere on shepards body.  That is what we are arguing.

Even if Shepard's  Armor could survive the descent, the armor is less an issue than the body within, which is still composed of fragile flesh and would have to survive all the momentum of his reentry being suddenly stopped as he hit the surface.  The armor might be intact; but it would be filled with Shepard goo.

The only way around this would be if the planet's atmosphere were extremely dense and would thus slow his descent to a speed which wouldn't destroy his brain and that his armor had sufficient thermal resistance to keep his body from being incinerated.   However since the armor was punctured the thermal energy could enter the suit and would thus incinerate the body inside the suit.

So the suit would be filled with ashes or goo, take your pick.  Regardless his brain would be too damaged to be repaired to the point that his memories and personality would be intact.  Thus I maintain that his body entered orbit.

Modifié par implodinggoat, 26 mars 2010 - 04:56 .

[AwesomeAuger]

The atmosphere could be very thin, so you'd avoid the heat, and you wouldn't fall very fast if the planet didn't much gravitational pull.

[Ecael]

I'd be all for saying that Shepard never entered the atmosphere - however, we need to explain why the N7 helmet was found so close to the crash site (and why Shepard's shoulderplate was too) only to remain somewhat intact.

The helmet was removed to verify brain integrity and simply tossed away during extraction... which is stupid, but far less stupid than saying shepard hit the ground... maybe he just skipped off the upper atmo and went on.... Honestly, they should have gone with the Legion intro, would have been far FAR better.

Problem is he's clearly fried, as we see from the intro... can't imagine hitting solid packed ice would do a body any good either.

Would that mean Shepard's body remained stationary from outside the atmosphere? I'm not particularly fond of physics (so I can't use many terms here). The man I linked from before - Joseph Kittinger - also nearly died when one of his parachutes stuck and literally spun him unconscious (the other parachutes were automatically deployed at set points on the altimeter). He landed on the ground, safe but still unresponsive.

[ObserverStatus]

Shepard should be orbiting the planet at the same speed that the Normandy was when he left it.

[Xaijin]

well, not stationary, but still on trajectory that could entail STABLE planetary capture and thus Liara's stuff, etc. The Normandy decayed and hit, but we don't know WHEN and for how long it was in orbit before decaying.

It just makes a lot more sense that he was in orbit when they found him.

Modifié par Xaijin, 26 mars 2010 - 04:59 .

[Ecael]

bobobo878 wrote...

Shepard should be orbiting the planet at the same speed that the Normandy was when he left it.

In that case, why were there pieces of the Normandy on the ground that are smaller than Shepard? Shouldn't they be in orbit with Shepard as well? Or would most of the pieces of Normandy be in orbit too?

well, not stationary, but still on trajectory that could entail STABLE
planetary capture and thus Liara' stuff ,etc.



It just
makes a lot more sense that he was in orbit when they found him.

Wouldn't the helm land somewhere far away from the Crash Site then?

[implodinggoat]

AwesomeAuger wrote...

The atmosphere could be very thin, so you'd avoid the heat, and you wouldn't fall very fast if the planet didn't much gravitational pull.

http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Alchera

Alchera

Atm. Pressure: 0.83 atmospheres


Surface Temp: −22 °C


Surface Gravity: 0.85 g


Mass: 1.767 Earth Masses

Modifié par implodinggoat, 26 mars 2010 - 05:02 .

[implodinggoat]

bobobo878 wrote...

Shepard should be orbiting the planet at the same speed that the Normandy was when he left it.

Good point, considering that the Normandy was running from the Collector cruiser at full speed he'd be going like a damned bullet when he hit the atmopshere.  So his body would be even more ****ed than I've been saying it would be.

Furthermore that makes it more likely his body would enter orbit since the Normandy wasn't flying towards the planet.

Modifié par implodinggoat, 26 mars 2010 - 05:05 .

[Xaijin]

In this instance trajectory is more important than size.. until decaying orbit sets in. Also the destroyed small pieces could have broken off during freefall. Pressly's DP survived which implies .. a "light" impact, but the human body simply isn't remotely designed for ANY of that, from an integrity standpoint.



Actually all the Normandy stuff should be in an arc, over a wide as hell path... but that would make dog tag finding a hammerhead mission.

[Xaijin]

Mass: 1.767 Earth Masses

hahaha they wouldn't have found crap other than a crater and bone fragments, and the suit would have made things worse.

Modifié par Xaijin, 26 mars 2010 - 05:07 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Nerivant wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Nerivant wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Nerivant wrote...

I just realized that this is a thread about physics, about a game in which the very name describes the ability to **** up the laws of physics. The ability that the entire series is centered on.

Mind-boggling, really.

Hey, there is an expanation for that. It's called dark energy.  Since we know so little about it we get to make up all sorts of crap and say it's plausible.  That's what sci-fis are all about, toying with the unknown.

You don't question the futility of arguing about the physics in a game, where, to the casual obsever, the laws of physics mean ****?

Are you a casual observer? Are any of the people here casual observers?  I honestly don't think so, I think we are all sci-fi fans talking about a work of fiction and its established physics in order to entertain ourselves.  If you wanted to talk about real physics you could go to scientific forum.  This isn't a scientific forum, and thus we can talk about the fake physics of a work of fiction all day long if we want.  Which, consequently, is exactly what we are doing.

You fail to acknowledge that this conversation is fake. Thus, we are the fake, fakely conversing about the fake things in a fake thing.

This reply is fake.

The above statement is fake.

IT IS ALL FAKE.

Ok... *Thinks of convo with ZennExile*

[GuardianAngel470]

implodinggoat wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

Shepard should be orbiting the planet at the same speed that the Normandy was when he left it.

Good point, considering that the Normandy was running from the Collector cruiser at full speed he'd be going like a damned bullet when he hit the atmopshere.  So his body would be even more ****ed than I've been saying it would be.

Furthermore that makes it more likely his body would enter orbit since the Normandy wasn't flying towards the planet.

The only problem being that he was blasted in the opposite direction from the trajectory of the normandy by an explosion.

[GuardianAngel470]

implodinggoat wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

He still wouldn't be going fast enough to be incinerated.  Also, you can see in the cinematic that the atmosphere has an immediate effect on shepard, implying that he is closer to the planet then you believe.  And the fact that cerberus shouldn't be able to bring him back is a useless thing to argue.  As it stands the excuse for that is, "It's the future, they can do anything."  Can a human brain maintain it's memories after losing oxygen for a prolonged period of time and dying? Not in real life, no.  That is a "Wizard did it" Scenario.  What isn't a wizard did it scenario is the effects of the atmosphere on shepards body.  That is what we are arguing.

Even if Shepard's  Armor could survive the descent, the armor is less an issue than the body within, which is still composed of fragile flesh and would have to survive all the momentum of his reentry being suddenly stopped as he hit the surface.  The armor might be intact; but it would be filled with Shepard goo.

The only way around this would be if the planet's atmosphere were extremely dense and would thus slow his descent to a speed which wouldn't destroy his brain and that his armor had sufficient thermal resistance to keep his body from being incinerated.   However since the armor was punctured the thermal energy could enter the suit and would thus incinerate the body inside the suit.

So the suit would be filled with ashes or goo, take your pick.  Regardless his brain would be too damaged to be repaired to the point that his memories and personality would be intact.  Thus I maintain that his body entered orbit.

I completely agree that collision with the surface would result in the utter destruction of shepard...but somehow they brought him back.  It makes no sense.  But that isn't what I was talking about.  I was talking about reentry and only reentry.  He may be completely obliterated when he hit the surface, but I don't think he would be incinerated first. 

Honestly, arguing over whether or not shepard could really be salvaged is pointless.  As soon as he died his memories would have been wiped, making all of ME2 impossible.  Whether or not his body was intact is also pointless, because it doesn't matter.  The brain is what matters and it wouldn't survive death (obviously).

[implodinggoat]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

implodinggoat wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

Shepard should be orbiting the planet at the same speed that the Normandy was when he left it.

Good point, considering that the Normandy was running from the Collector cruiser at full speed he'd be going like a damned bullet when he hit the atmopshere.  So his body would be even more ****ed than I've been saying it would be.

Furthermore that makes it more likely his body would enter orbit since the Normandy wasn't flying towards the planet.

The only problem being that he was blasted in the opposite direction from the trajectory of the normandy by an explosion.

He was moving away from the Normandy relative to the Normandy's trajectory; but relative to the planet's trajectory he was still whipping around it at a ridiculous speed (equal to the Normandy at full speed) while moving towards the planet at a far lesser speed equal to the force excerted upon him by the explosion.

For comparison condsider if I jumped off the exterior of the space shuttle towards the Earth.  I would be moving towards the Earth at a speed based upon the force of my jump; but I would still be moving around the Earth at a speed equal to the Shuttle's orbiting speed.   If you were on the shuttle though you would only see me drifiting away at the speed of my jump since we would both be orbiting the planet at the same speed.

Modifié par implodinggoat, 26 mars 2010 - 05:20 .

[Ecael]

Xaijin wrote...

In this instance trajectory is more important than size.. until decaying orbit sets in. Also the destroyed small pieces could have broken off during freefall. Pressly's DP survived which implies .. a "light" impact, but the human body simply isn't remotely designed for ANY of that, from an integrity standpoint.

Actually all the Normandy stuff should be in an arc, over a wide as hell path... but that would make dog tag finding a hammerhead mission.

There would be something to actually shoot, then:P

There are still a bunch of intact Refined Eezo boxes and crates laying around, although I can see why the datapad could survive impact.

[Xaijin]

Just rewatched the intro, The SR1 isn't going full speed, and is in extremely close orbit, path is not erratic.

1st explosion: towards planet, trajectory change for shepard, Normandy is halted into super slow drift.

2nd Explosion: away from planet, hard trajectory change

3rd explosion: away from planet, light trajectory change.

Modifié par Xaijin, 26 mars 2010 - 05:22 .

[Timmibal]

The helmet may have been a spare on the Normandy.

This. N7 Armor is not a unique item. They've got a brand spanking new set in the lab just sitting in a cupboard FFS.



Also, assuming Shep did go into re-entry, a lot of you seem to be re-inventing the wheel. Mass effect already HAS its unobtanium in the form of Element Zero. This is a substance which can modify the mass of objects around it purely through the direction of an electric current flowing through it.



You don't think at some stage a military R&D dude would have said "Oh Hey, we've regularly got N7 operatives who are working in low orbit and other extreme circumstances, how about a velocity failsafe? As soon as the suit's detected to be moving at speed x, pop a mass effect field to drop the weight to something infintesimal. Fukken solved."

[Xaijin]

Timmibal wrote...

The helmet may have been a spare on the Normandy.

This. N7 Armor is not a unique item. They've got a brand spanking new set in the lab just sitting in a cupboard FFS.

Also, assuming Shep did go into re-entry, a lot of you seem to be re-inventing the wheel. Mass effect already HAS its unobtanium in the form of Element Zero. This is a substance which can modify the mass of objects around it purely through the direction of an electric current flowing through it.

You don't think at some stage a military R&D dude would have said "Oh Hey, we've regularly got N7 operatives who are working in low orbit and other extreme circumstances, how about a velocity failsafe? As soon as the suit's detected to be moving at speed x, pop a mass effect field to drop the weight to something infintesimal. Fukken solved."

Because the shielding codex entry invalidates this pretty much full stop, aaand I don't remember hovering around anytime during ME1.

[Jax Sparrow]

 @ Wolf990000 : As others have said, he could have just ended up in low orbit, and there is no way of knowing how resistant the armor would be.  Alchera has an atmosphere of mostly methane and ammonia which makes it rather cold.  Thus maybe the colder atmosphere created less net heat that his suit protected him from.  In the end, you can find a way to explain it if you want to.  If you would rather believe that it is a plot hole?  I am sure there are plenty of people who would agree with you... doesn't make it true either way... its fiction.

[Ecael]

Timmibal wrote...

The helmet may have been a spare on the Normandy.

This. N7 Armor is not a unique item. They've got a brand spanking new set in the lab just sitting in a cupboard FFS.

If so, what's so important about getting the spare helmet back? Wouldn't Shepard either disregard it or have found the entire suit near it?

[Xaijin]

The bouquet out of that thing must be amazing.

AND OVER HERE, LOVE INTEREST, IS A PROTHEAN THINGIE AND DEAR GOD WHAT IS THAT SMELL

Modifié par Xaijin, 26 mars 2010 - 06:06 .

[Massadonious1]

This thread blinded me.....with science.

[Reptilian Rob]

Ecael wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

He wasn't going fast enough to burn up. The space shuttle is going like 24000 miles per second upon reentry, that's why it has that halo of flames. Shepard was only going as fast as terminal velocity for that planet, which isn't fast enough to burn up. Last I checked, skydivers don't burn up.

Skydivers also don't jump out of space shuttles orbiting a planet.......

The Excelsior Project will continue. (Link)

Technically, that is not a skydiver.