67 réponses à ce sujet

[SurelyForth]

LadyDamodred wrote...

I like Riordan, so I forgive him his faults. *shrugs*

I, on the other hand, have absolutely no problem executing Loghain; not with letting Alistair do it or when my CE does it. My more politically minded characters see it as necessary to prevent anyone from still trying to make a fuss. There is no banner for them to rally behind now. It sucks, b/c I think Loghain is all kinds of awesome, but there it is.

I, also, have no problem executing Loghain. He does not hesitate to demand the PC's execution and the line about little girls and skinned knees infuriates me. I'm sure all the fathers who died when they were overrun by the Blight, or strung up by his men or Howe's men during the war, would have loved to have one sweet moment with their children.

As for Riordan, I think I would hate him less if the Landsmeet didn't feel like such a game. He should not be able to take the floor, since the matter he is bringing up is Grey Warden business and not Landsmeet business. That decision should not be made in front of a hundred pair of eyes, it should be a discussion held in private and limited to the three Wardens.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 26 mars 2010 - 01:54 .

[nos_astra]

Because of his lack of foresight Anora lets one of the big secrets of the Wardens slip: Every noble then knows that the Joining is often fatal.

[mousestalker]

SurelyForth wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

I like Riordan, so I forgive him his faults. *shrugs*

I, on the other hand, have absolutely no problem executing Loghain; not with letting Alistair do it or when my CE does it. My more politically minded characters see it as necessary to prevent anyone from still trying to make a fuss. There is no banner for them to rally behind now. It sucks, b/c I think Loghain is all kinds of awesome, but there it is.

I, also, have no problem executing Loghain. He does not hesitate to demand the PC's execution and the line about little girls and skinned knees infuriates me. I'm sure all the fathers who died when they were overrun by the Blight, or strung up by his men or Howe's men during the war, would have loved to have one sweet moment with their children.

As for Riordan, I think I would hate him less if the Landsmeet didn't feel like such a game. He should not be able to take the floor, since the matter he is bringing up is Grey Warden business and not Landsmeet business. That decision should not be made in front of a hundred pair of eyes, it should be a discssion held in private and limited to the three Wardens.

Exactly. It would feel better, if he said something on the order of "Why not imprison him for now and we can discuss his fate later. There are matters which we need to discuss in private that might affect your decision."

As keen as Alistair is for Loghain to die, I think even he might be willing to delay the execution for a bit of discussion.

[MutantSpleen]

klarabella wrote...

MutantSpleen wrote...
Me too. Plus Loghain is such a great character,even more so when you get to know him. Plus I can't handle that scene when you execute Loghain and he says "Daughters never grow up Anora, they remain six years old with pigtails and skinned knees forever."

Oh well, my reasons were not nearly as compassionate. I have no problem executing Loghain (technically it's Alistair doing that in my games) but I did it for the drama ending to the Alistair romance. She made Loghain a Grey Warden to show him what a goddamn fool he was and underestimated Alistair's reaction to that.
I wanted to roleplay her that way in Awakening, carrying Maric's sword and a little demon statuette around.
(I wished I could have kept the rose and the runic worry token.)

Yeah I was not romancing Alistair with my mage, and I got really pissed at him when he threw his temper-tantrum. I seriously was shocked that he let his pride get in the way of doing his duty in the final battle because I made Loghain a Warden, knowing what was at stake, it was unacceptable to my Warden. Though I still made him King for the Ferelden's stability, but me and Alistair basically ended up hating each other.
Thats my mage though, pragmatic and doesn't let her emotions rule her decisions, usually.

[SurelyForth]

MutantSpleen wrote...

[Yeah I was not romancing Alistair with my mage, and I got really pissed at him when he threw his temper-tantrum. I seriously was shocked that he let his pride get in the way of doing his duty in the final battle because I made Loghain a Warden, knowing what was at stake, it was unacceptable to my Warden. Though I still made him King for the Ferelden's stability, but me and Alistair basically ended up hating each other.
Thats my mage though, pragmatic and doesn't let her emotions rule her decisions, usually.

See, to me, Alistair's behavior at the Landsmeet is no worse than Loghain's is up until you hand him his ass during the duel. And at least Alistair's points have a basis in reality, even if he is upset. But, again, it was definitely a conversation that should have been held in private.

And if he showed up in the last battle, people who are pre-disposed to disliking him would probably claim he was no better than Cailan, risking his life for glory.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 26 mars 2010 - 02:12 .

[Xandurpein]

SurelyForth wrote...

MutantSpleen wrote...

[Yeah I was not romancing Alistair with my mage, and I got really pissed at him when he threw his temper-tantrum. I seriously was shocked that he let his pride get in the way of doing his duty in the final battle because I made Loghain a Warden, knowing what was at stake, it was unacceptable to my Warden. Though I still made him King for the Ferelden's stability, but me and Alistair basically ended up hating each other.
Thats my mage though, pragmatic and doesn't let her emotions rule her decisions, usually.

See, to me, Alistair's behavior at the Landsmeet is no worse than Loghain's is up until you hand him his ass during the duel. And at least Alistair's points have a basis in reality, even if he is upset. But, again, it was definitely a conversation that should have been held in private.

And if he showed up in the last battle, people who are pre-disposed to disliking him would probably claim he was no better than Cailan, risking his life for glory.

This is really off-topic. There are so many threads on the whole Alistair vs Loghain issue anyway. The point is really not if Alistair is better or worse than Loghain. By my book Alistair is a vastly more likeable character than Loghain, and quite possibly as good a Grey Warden as Loghain too, experience as General or not. The point is that if the player tries to argue Alistair into accepting Loghain, Alistair will force you to not only kill Loghain, but also make him King or he quits. I have roleplayed characters who did not think Alistair was a suitable King even if he was more dependable a Warden than Loghain. It's no longer just a question of Alistair vs Loghain, but also of Alistair vs Anora at that point. The decision of which your character prefers as monarch is a matter of opinion. It's no point arguing with those who feel differently, or at least make new thread about it or better yet reopen one of the hundred or so available.

[Nhadalie]

You make a lot of really good points about it. And I think it can mostly be chalked up to game mechanics, and them not wanting to reveal everything too early, to make the final night before the Archdemon battle more dramatic.


I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say that Riordan is a failure, but you've definitely made me rethink how I would handle certain situations in a fanfic.


I always thought the dragon jumping, while being pretty epic to see, was a really stupid move. I mean.. He didn't even really ground the dragon. The dragon still flies around the rooftop in the final battle, despite his wing being all ripped up. I would've preferred seeing Riordan join you for the final battle on the rooftop.

[SurelyForth]

Xandurpein wrote...

This is really off-topic. There are so many threads on the whole Alistair vs Loghain issue anyway. The point is really not if Alistair is better or worse than Loghain. By my book Alistair is a vastly more likeable character than Loghain, and quite possibly as good a Grey Warden as Loghain too, experience as General or not. The point is that if the player tries to argue Alistair into accepting Loghain, Alistair will force you to not only kill Loghain, but also make him King or he quits. I have roleplayed characters who did not think Alistair was a suitable King even if he was more dependable a Warden than Loghain. It's no longer just a question of Alistair vs Loghain, but also of Alistair vs Anora at that point. The decision of which your character prefers as monarch is a matter of opinion. It's no point arguing with those who feel differently, or at least make new thread about it or better yet reopen one of the hundred or so available.

You're right, but my feelings about Riordan actually are almost inextricably tied up in the whole mess at the Landsmeet. It's his actions (and, as klarabella points out) lack of foresight that create the Loghain v. Alistair scenario and my original point was that the game uses him as the catalyst for a very contrived situation and it feeds back into why I dislike his character so much. He's actually used to horrible effect twice- once at the Landsmeet and once at Redcliffe Castle.

If his character would just ask you some questions at Eamon's estate then the PC and Alistair might at least have full disclosure. Alistair would have been less likely to bolt when Loghain was conscripted if he knew about the Archdemon, and the whole endless argument that Alistair is a manchild for reacting strongly exactly where he should react strongly could be avoided. Instead, the game suddenly needs to jump through these hoops for the sake of drama and to set up the endgame and Riordan is the face of that obvious mechanism.

[MutantSpleen]

Yeah sorry to pull off topic.But yes Loghain was an ass too at the Landsmeet. I just agreed with Riordan, we need as many Wardens as possible, and he is a very capable fighter.

I also don't fault Alistair for having strong feelings there but that was when my Warden felt it was time to put personal feelings aside for the greater good and success of defeating this Archdemon. I knew with all Loghain had done, he would not back down from his duty to Ferelden and would give his fight against the Archdemon everything he had.

So as it relates back to Riordan, I agreed with him.

Modifié par MutantSpleen, 26 mars 2010 - 02:51 .

[Xandurpein]

While I agree that Riordan stirred things up unnecessarily at the Landsmeet, and his timing was less than stellar, I think his instinct was basically sound. Loghain was good Warden material. It's hard to blame Riordan for not realizing that Alistair has this idealized view of Duncan and what it means to be a Grey Warden that makes him unable to see that making Loghain a Warden can make sense.

It's probably a good thing Alistair isn't around as Warden in Awakening. I can't imagine what Alistair would have made of the odd crew we recruit in Awakening, but I can see quite a few joinings that would have cost me influence with Alistair.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 26 mars 2010 - 03:09 .

[HoonDing]

I dislike Riordan for getting himself spectacularly & conveniently killed by jumping on top of a dragon in flight so that the Gray Wardens in the party would be forced to do all the dirty work.



What was he thinking? Only Mad Martigan would pull off a stunt like that.

[SurelyForth]

Xandurpein wrote...

While I agree that Riordan stirred things up unnecessarily at the Landsmeet, I think his instinct where basically sound. Loghain was good Warden material. It is Alistair who has this idealized view of Duncan and what it means to be a Grey Warden.

It's probably a good thing Alistair isn't around as Warden in Awakening. I can't imagine what Alistair would have made of the odd crew we recruit in Awakening, but I can see quite a few joinings that would have cost me influence with Alistair.

It's my opinion that Alistair would either have come to resent Duncan or become a much harder person had Duncan lived (either way, recruiting Loghain would have gone much smoother). And the US epilogues back your point up- if he isn't king he invariably rejoins the Wardens and then leaves after a bit because "it isn't the same". That could be interpreted as him missing the PC (even one he didn't romance) or him realizing that the Wardens weren't as awesome as he had initially believed. I think it's a bit of both.

I think Velanna and Howe would have not sat well with him, for certain, especially if he was around to hear Nate say that he might still try to kill you.

You know, I never really thought much about the leap onto the Archdemon. I knew Riordan was going to die in some spectacularly lame-brained fashion (because...duh. He had served his purpose as Captain Exposition ) and that seemed about the most perfect way for him to go out.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 26 mars 2010 - 03:07 .

[mousestalker]

Xandurpein wrote...

While I agree that Riordan stirred things up unnecessarily at the Landsmeet, and his timing was less than stellar, I think his instinct was basically sound. Loghain was good Warden material. It is Alistair who has this idealized view of Duncan and what it means to be a Grey Warden.

It's probably a good thing Alistair isn't around as Warden in Awakening. I can't imagine what Alistair would have made of the odd crew we recruit in Awakening, but I can see quite a few joinings that would have cost me influence with Alistair.

I'd pay good money to see Alistair and Velanna square off. Or to see his reaction to recruiting Anders or Oghren.

Oddly enough, I think he would be good with Sigrun and Justice.

Edit: I can't believe I forgot Nathaniel. Would that be a Loghain rivaling explosion?

Another Edit: I forgot he was there for the recruiting of Anders. D'oh!

He comes off rather muted in that encounter. I mean the entire encounter, not just the Anders portion.

Modifié par mousestalker, 26 mars 2010 - 03:15 .

[SurelyForth]

mousestalker wrote...

I'd pay good money to see Alistair and Velanna square off. Or to see his reaction to recruiting Anders or Oghren.

Oddly enough, I think he would be good with Sigrun and Justice.

As king, he doesn't seem to think too much of you recruiting Anders. Having them together would be a perfect storm of snark, though. Cutscenes would go on for 10 minutes as they tried to out witticism one another.

I think his reaction to Nate would be akin to his reaction to accepting Zevran, only the approval loss might be more severe. Of course, you're actually making Nate a Warden so...it  might be quite the blow-up.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 26 mars 2010 - 03:14 .

[Xandurpein]

SurelyForth wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

While I agree that Riordan stirred things up unnecessarily at the Landsmeet, I think his instinct where basically sound. Loghain was good Warden material. It is Alistair who has this idealized view of Duncan and what it means to be a Grey Warden.

It's probably a good thing Alistair isn't around as Warden in Awakening. I can't imagine what Alistair would have made of the odd crew we recruit in Awakening, but I can see quite a few joinings that would have cost me influence with Alistair.

It's my opinion that Alistair would either have come to resent Duncan or become a much harder person had Duncan lived (either way, recruiting Loghain would have gone much smoother). And the US epilogues back your point up- if he isn't king he invariably rejoins the Wardens and then leaves after a bit because "it isn't the same". That could be interpreted as him missing the PC (even one he didn't romance) or him realizing that the Wardens weren't as awesome as he had initially believed. I think it's a bit of both.

I think Velanna and Howe would have not sat well with him, for certain, especially if he was around to hear Nate say that he might still try to kill you.

You know, I never really thought much about the leap onto the Archdemon. I knew Riordan was going to die in some spectacularly lame-brained fashion (because...duh. He had served his purpose as Captain Exposition ) and that seemed about the most perfect way for him to go out.

Potentially they could have set up Awakening to be a totally heartbreaking experience. Imagine having Alistair around and get more and more resentful as you recruit, Nathaniel, Anders, Velanna one after the other and then decide to leave alltogether, because the Grey Wardens aren't the same anymore.

[SurelyForth]

Xandurpein wrote...


Potentially they could have set up Awakening to be a totally heartbreaking experience. Imagine having Alistair around and get more and more resentful as you recruit, Nathaniel, Anders, Velanna one after the other and then decide to leave alltogether, because the Grey Wardens aren't the same anymore.

I was hoping they would go there with Mhairi, actually. She seemed to be under the same delusions as Alistair as to the inherent nobility of the Grey Wardens. If she was hesitant about Oghren, I can't imagine her being ok with Nathaniel or Velanna.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 26 mars 2010 - 03:16 .

[Xandurpein]

SurelyForth wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...


Potentially they could have set up Awakening to be a totally heartbreaking experience. Imagine having Alistair around and get more and more resentful as you recruit, Nathaniel, Anders, Velanna one after the other and then decide to leave alltogether, because the Grey Wardens aren't the same anymore.

I was hoping they would go there with Mhairi, actually. She seemed to be under the same delusions as Alistair as to the inherent nobility of the Grey Wardens. If she was hesitant about Oghren, I can't imagine her being ok with Nathaniel or Velanna.

This is one of the things that I just love about Dragon Age. You can't fix everything and you are always stuck in the grey areas. Even if you can make something truly epic and awesome happen, it's usually at the expense of something else that also would have been epic, but now will never happen. You can try and shape The Grey Wardens into the an order of knights in shining armor, or you can imagine them as the last hope of redemption for scarred souls. Both views are awesome, but both will potentially deny wonderful characters their hopes and dreams.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 26 mars 2010 - 03:30 .

[Raiil]

Riordan pissed my PC off, and I'm not a huge fan either. Storming the Landsmeet (really? seriously?) was such a douche canoe move. My Amell shared Alistair's feelings on Loghain- while I personally would have tossed him in a dungeon and left him there until after the Blight was over, Amell wasn't leaving until she had to step over his head to exit.





He had one good purpose, though (other than winging the dragon enough to ground it)- he was proof to me that the Wardens were a little more pragmatic than I thought.

[Addai]

MutantSpleen wrote...

I also don't fault Alistair for having strong feelings there but that was when my Warden felt it was time to put personal feelings aside for the greater good and success of defeating this Archdemon. I knew with all Loghain had done, he would not back down from his duty to Ferelden and would give his fight against the Archdemon everything he had.

Since Loghain had shown not a wit of seriousness about the Blight up til then, it's hard to see how you could come to this conclusion.

I do think the scene shows Riordan's naivete about politics and especially Fereldan politics, as does his capture.  It's too bad we know so little about him.  He's obviously been around- we know at least that he's been to Weisshaupt- but so little else.  If we got more back story, it would be easier to see him as a real character rather than a plot mover.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 mars 2010 - 03:27 .

[Raiil]

Addai67 wrote...

MutantSpleen wrote...

I also don't fault Alistair for having strong feelings there but that was when my Warden felt it was time to put personal feelings aside for the greater good and success of defeating this Archdemon. I knew with all Loghain had done, he would not back down from his duty to Ferelden and would give his fight against the Archdemon everything he had.

Since Loghain had shown not a wit of seriousness about the Blight up til then, it's hard to see how you could come to this conclusion.

I do think the scene shows Riordan's naivete about politics and especially Fereldan politics, as does his capture.  It's too bad we know so little about him.  He's obviously been around- we know at least that he's been to Weisshaupt- but so little else.  If we got more back story, it would be easier to see him as a real character rather than a plot mover.

Or Riordan was being very politically savvy. Loghain is a war hero and still popular with some people. By giving an alternative, he's forcing the Warden's hand, in public, without time to really think or negotiate. Most people would probably see the benefit of keeping Loghain alive and making him useful, because he still has some popular opinion and well, he's Loghain, father to the Queen, defeater of Orlais. I would suspect that Riordan thought he was tipping the idea in his favour because of how quickly he was forcing the issue. Had he tried to negotiate in private, Alistair would have had time to let his views known beforehand, and there was probably a greater chance of Riordan's idea falling through.

[goofygoff]

My PC accepts Loghain's surrender before Riordan even chimes in.  From a in-game perspective, him showing up actually takes away that option, so that it's either GW or death.  Even though, in that situation, it seems as if he's offering a compromise between my PC showing mercy and Alistair's "kill him already!!!1!", rather than just an alternative to killing him.  So since the game mechanics won't allow for my PC's preference to be an option at that point, I just have to imagine it's there so that she feels that she's giving some ground.

Obviously Alistair doesn't see it that way, but that's why he gets married off to Anora. 

[Addai]

Valentia X wrote...

Or Riordan was being very politically savvy. Loghain is a war hero and still popular with some people. By giving an alternative, he's forcing the Warden's hand, in public, without time to really think or negotiate.

Somehow I doubt Riordan was making a political calculation.  He is single-minded about defeating the darkspawn, as Duncan was.  Nevertheless my PC generally feels no qualms in setting aside his advice, because he's not Fereldan (only by birth), and my human nobles especially feel they have a better grasp on the political situation than he could.  Allowing the civil war to potentially go on is national suicide.  Metagame-wise we know that Loghain capitulates, but to my mind there is nothing about your in-game interaction with him that allows me to believe he would do that.

[MutantSpleen]

Addai67 wrote...

MutantSpleen wrote...

I also don't fault Alistair for having strong feelings there but that was when my Warden felt it was time to put personal feelings aside for the greater good and success of defeating this Archdemon. I knew with all Loghain had done, he would not back down from his duty to Ferelden and would give his fight against the Archdemon everything he had.

Since Loghain had shown not a wit of seriousness about the Blight up til then, it's hard to see how you could come to this conclusion.

I do think the scene shows Riordan's naivete about politics and especially Fereldan politics, as does his capture.  It's too bad we know so little about him.  He's obviously been around- we know at least that he's been to Weisshaupt- but so little else.  If we got more back story, it would be easier to see him as a real character rather than a plot mover.

I don't think Loghain was not serious about the Blight, but he didn't believe in fighting losing battles and he didn't believe in the "fairy tales" about the Grey Wardens. He was a man who dealt in hard facts. He felt that those Grey Warden stories are what got Cailan killed. This is confirmed in Return ot Ostagar, as even Cailan's guard said that Cailan knew it was a hopeless battle and thought the Wardens had some trick up their sleeves. Even if Loghain hadn't retreated from the battle they all would have still been killed. (Which I had suspected myself but wasn't confirmed until RtO, even if Loghain had charged when we lit the signal beacon which was very late, Cailan was already being mauled by the Ogre.)

[Thalorin1919]

Sabriana wrote...

I agree on him not being forthcoming with information. He should know that the PC warden was a GW for a few hours, and that Alistair was one for 6 month before Duncan bit the dust. The first (or one of the first) question he should have asked is "How much do you know about the GWs, the Blight, and the archdemon?"
However, I also find it a bit strange that Duncan never mentioned the archdemon deal to Alistair. He's had 6 month to spit that VERY important information out, but neglected to do that.

Being captured by Howe was a bit silly, I agree on that too. Given his age, he should have been more careful, especially when dealing with Ferelden nobility, and him coming out of Orlais. No matter what his nationality, simply traveling from Orlais should make anyone careful, considering the bad and bitter history the two nations have.

As for the ritual, I think it is mentioned that Loghain seized Riordan's blood supply, and upon Loghain's defeat it becomes once again available to the GWs.

His death is spectacular, but stupid, true enough. You are right, jumping onto a flying dragon with one sword is unworthy of a rogue who is also a Grey Warden. Well, at least he managed to gimp the beast for my PC and her trusty misfits.

I think Duncan never mentioned it to Alistair, cause he was trying to keep Alistair alive. Him being Cailans half brother and the heir to the throne. He doesnt want Alistair to know the reasons for the Archdemon to be killed by a GW, cause he doesnt want Alistair to do it.

[MutantSpleen]

goofygoff wrote...

My PC accepts Loghain's surrender before Riordan even chimes in.  From a in-game perspective, him showing up actually takes away that option, so that it's either GW or death.  Even though, in that situation, it seems as if he's offering a compromise between my PC showing mercy and Alistair's "kill him already!!!1!", rather than just an alternative to killing him.  So since the game mechanics won't allow for my PC's preference to be an option at that point, I just have to imagine it's there so that she feels that she's giving some ground.

Obviously Alistair doesn't see it that way, but that's why he gets married off to Anora. 

Thats exactly how mine played out, I accepted Loghain's surrender before Riordan made his offer.