67 réponses à ce sujet

[SurelyForth]

MutantSpleen wrote...


I don't think Loghain was not serious about the Blight, but he didn't believe in fighting losing battles and he didn't believe in the "fairy tales" about the Grey Wardens. He was a man who dealt in hard facts. He felt that those Grey Warden stories are what got Cailan killed. This is confirmed in Return ot Ostagar, as even Cailan's guard said that Cailan knew it was a hopeless battle and thought the Wardens had some trick up their sleeves. Even if Loghain hadn't retreated from the battle they all would have still been killed. (Which I had suspected myself but wasn't confirmed until RtO, even if Loghain had charged when we lit the signal beacon which was very late, Cailan was already being mauled by the Ogre.)

Well, he deals in the hard facts except for the hard fact that the darkspawn are destroying the southern part of the country while he futzes around fighting the Bannorn. Doesn't he even say if you spare him and ask him what he would have done had he won that he would first secure the borders? That's not going to help with a Blight and is a pretty clear indication that the only threat he was seeing was from Orlais, even though he (allegedly) saw with his own eyes the massive, destructive horde at Ostagar (the one that not even his thousands of troops could defeat, apparently).

[mousestalker]

LostScout wrote...

Here's something to consider: Riordan has had the taint for a long time. Perhaps he has lost a lot of his mental edge. It's kind of like Alzheimer's for Gray Wardens.

This.

That's what happens when you have unarmoured sex.

[MutantSpleen]

SurelyForth wrote...

MutantSpleen wrote...


I don't think Loghain was not serious about the Blight, but he didn't believe in fighting losing battles and he didn't believe in the "fairy tales" about the Grey Wardens. He was a man who dealt in hard facts. He felt that those Grey Warden stories are what got Cailan killed. This is confirmed in Return ot Ostagar, as even Cailan's guard said that Cailan knew it was a hopeless battle and thought the Wardens had some trick up their sleeves. Even if Loghain hadn't retreated from the battle they all would have still been killed. (Which I had suspected myself but wasn't confirmed until RtO, even if Loghain had charged when we lit the signal beacon which was very late, Cailan was already being mauled by the Ogre.)

Well, he deals in the hard facts except for the hard fact that the darkspawn are destroying the southern part of the country while he futzes around fighting the Bannorn. Doesn't he even say if you spare him and ask him what he would have done had he won that he would first secure the borders? That's not going to help with a Blight and is a pretty clear indication that the only threat he was seeing was from Orlais, even though he (allegedly) saw with his own eyes the massive, destructive horde at Ostagar (the one that not even his thousands of troops could defeat, apparently).

Here I felt this was one of Loghain's bigger mistakes.  He thought that his influence alone could cow the other nobles into falling in line under his banner. If the civil war had been avoided, which was his intention, then Ferelden would have been able to put up a much more unfied front to the Darkspawn up to that point.  Not saying they would have won, but I think the destruction would have been less rampant. It was his character flaw that he felt he was the only one who could do what needed to be done.

The sad part too is that even though Maric had raised him to a noble. Most of the other nobles still looked down on him as having "commoner" blood.  Ferelden nobles really were a bunch of pricks.

Modifié par MutantSpleen, 26 mars 2010 - 04:46 .

[khathaway71]

*spoilers below*







Riordan knew that if he killed the Archdemon he would die. Therefore I assume that was partly his reason for jumping onto the Archdemon and partly because he didn't want to let it get away from him.

I noticed Ser Gilmore only had one sword, no shield in the HN origins...weird I thought. And the part in the tower in Ostagar before my character gets shot with arrows I noticed she only draws one sword when she fights with two...bah.

[Addai]

What I really want to know about Riordan is how he managed to do all that without The Beard.

[Raiil]

Addai67 wrote...
Somehow I doubt Riordan was making a political calculation.  He is single-minded about defeating the darkspawn, as Duncan was.  Nevertheless my PC generally feels no qualms in setting aside his advice, because he's not Fereldan (only by birth), and my human nobles especially feel they have a better grasp on the political situation than he could.  Allowing the civil war to potentially go on is national suicide.  Metagame-wise we know that Loghain capitulates, but to my mind there is nothing about your in-game interaction with him that allows me to believe he would do that.

Here's my take: I doubt Riordan was the only avaliable choice to send to Ferelden. Someone from Antiva, the Free Marches or Nevarra would have probably fared better, since they don't seem to be at war with them and they don't have the same history and level of antagonism towards them as an Orlesian would. The Wardens are not an apolitical body, as is shown in Awakenings. They're not going to send in a naive fool to ascertain the situation: if they have any brains at all, they'll send in someone who has (or is taught) at least some of the political machinations of Ferelden and who would be able to take advantage of a situation. And Riordan is the one sent, which leads me to believe that while it was not his immediate intention to conscript Loghain, he knew a savvy choice when he saw one. It's a good PR move for the Wardens as well.

[Sabriana]

The whole landsmeet goes on my nerves because it's so illogical in so many aspects. Like I said, the whole shebang could have been avoided if Riordan had asked one simple question. "What do you know about the GWs, the Blight, and the archdemon?" He simply had to know that the two surviving Ferelden GWs were greener than green recruits.



As for Duncan not telling Alistair about the archdemon to protect him, how is that supposed to work? It's not as if Alistair wouldn't find out in the end. That's not how the Grey Wardens work. Anything to stop the Blight. Anything. Even burning down whole villages with innocent bystanders still inside to stop advancing darkspawn, or so my HN was told by Ser Gilmore. So why make Alistair a GW if he's not supposed to stop the archdemon. What if Alistair was the last one standing?

It's simply a plot-hole that Alistair wasn't told such an important detail by Duncan, and it simply was hand-waived so the whole Landsmeet/Riordan/Loghain/Alistair mess could make some sense.

[Addai]

Valentia X wrote...

Here's my take: I doubt Riordan was the only avaliable choice to send to Ferelden. Someone from Antiva, the Free Marches or Nevarra would have probably fared better, since they don't seem to be at war with them and they don't have the same history and level of antagonism towards them as an Orlesian would. The Wardens are not an apolitical body, as is shown in Awakenings. They're not going to send in a naive fool to ascertain the situation: if they have any brains at all, they'll send in someone who has (or is taught) at least some of the political machinations of Ferelden and who would be able to take advantage of a situation. And Riordan is the one sent, which leads me to believe that while it was not his immediate intention to conscript Loghain, he knew a savvy choice when he saw one. It's a good PR move for the Wardens as well.

All we're told, however, is that he volunteered because he's of Fereldan birth.  Also, for all the Orlesian wardens know at the time they send Riordan in, they are still dealing with Cailan who was a Warden supporter.  Although being turned away at the border would no doubt have given them a clue that all was not well.

Still, the OP has a point in that Riordan could not have been too savvy if he is accepting hospitality from Howe without knowing the extent of what is going on.  Our Wardens know from talking to a few commoners and a criminal in Lothering that the regent has set a bounty on Grey Wardens.

It is also not the greatest PR move to recruit Loghain when you have just spent the whole Landsmeet iterating his crimes against the kingdom.  Not even Riordan attempts to make this argument, rather listing out all the unsavory characters who are allowed to be Wardens.  His spiel is much like Duncan's, it revolves only around Loghain's military prowess and the fact that the taint dooms one to fight regardless of what a scumbag one might be.

[SurelyForth]

Addai67 wrote...

It is also not the greatest PR move to recruit Loghain when you have just spent the whole Landsmeet iterating his crimes against the kingdom.  Not even Riordan attempts to make this argument, rather listing out all the unsavory characters who are allowed to be Wardens.  His spiel is much like Duncan's, it revolves only around Loghain's military prowess and the fact that the taint dooms one to fight regardless of what a scumbag one might be.

And that's not even entirely true- as it will only get you in the end. Alistair is proof that a Warden can walk away from fighting darkspawn. He'll just have to give into his Calling eventually.

[nos_astra]

SurelyForth wrote...
And that's not even entirely true- as it will only get you in the end. Alistair is proof that a Warden can walk away from fighting darkspawn. He'll just have to give into his Calling eventually.

Riordan confirms that before Alistair goes and you can repeat that in Awakening when Anders asks you if you could leave the Wardens (which I did and had a fangirl giggling moment because it sounded like a reference to Alistair).

Modifié par klarabella, 26 mars 2010 - 06:42 .

[Tremere]

mousestalker wrote...

 The first time I played DA:O I was actually impressed by him, but I now know why the Orlesian Wardens sent him. It isn't because he is from Ferelden (he has a funny accent after all, so a lot of good that's going to do). It's because he's a screw up.

He gets captured because he believes Howe. The dude is a rogue and he drinks poison. He believes a nobleman that no one in Ferelden trusts, other than the Couslands (look what that got them). Instead of asking around he gets tricked by the regent's spymaster.

Next, he then withholds important information when he meets the remaining two Gray Wardens in Howe's palace. That may be excusable because of weakness from harsh treatment. But if you ask him if he can make new Gray Wardens he replies that he can't as all the archdemon blood has vanished.

He then pops up at Landsmeet and bigfoots your power play. All of a sudden Loghain can be made a Gray Warden, which was impossible earlier. Leaving you with choosing between having Alistair in and Loghain dead or Loghain in and Alistair sulking.

Being politically naive is no crime. But a Warden of his experience should know that he is proceeding with little or no intelligence and should at least attempt to gather some and learn the lay of the land and who the players are. When he pops up with his magically appearing archdemon blood he has made no attempt to learn anything about the other two Grey Wardens. None.

I really can not think of any suggestion or idea that he makes or has that is a good one. Riordan is a fathead with really great hair, sexy voice and scruffy beard. Even his idea about taking Alistair never ends well if you're a female Warden in a romance with the Alistair.

As for how he dies, well +10 for style, but -100 on sense. No warrior or rogue fights in game with just one blade. You either fight with two or with sword and shield. If I'm playing 'climb the dragon' I think I'd want two blades for better holding. Riordan is the worst sort of incompetent. A man whose appearance and history predispose you to like and trust him, while being eminently untrustworthy.

I just wish there were some way to leave him in his cell.

I am (playing as) Sebastian Cousland and I endorse this message. X^D *Laughs* Well said indeed.

I count it unfortunate that he couldn't be publicly dressed down for said incompetence (by younger less experienced Grey Wardens) and for his ridiculous suggestion. As I read in another forum in regards to him, "Just because that's how things have always been done doesn't mean they aren't totally stupid. If anything his words, actions and recent events should tell us that the Grey Wardens need an enema.

[ShimmeringDjinn]

GabrielXL wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

 The first time I played DA:O I was actually impressed by him, but I now know why the Orlesian Wardens sent him. It isn't because he is from Ferelden (he has a funny accent after all, so a lot of good that's going to do). It's because he's a screw up.

He gets captured because he believes Howe. The dude is a rogue and he drinks poison. He believes a nobleman that no one in Ferelden trusts, other than the Couslands (look what that got them). Instead of asking around he gets tricked by the regent's spymaster.

Next, he then withholds important information when he meets the remaining two Gray Wardens in Howe's palace. That may be excusable because of weakness from harsh treatment. But if you ask him if he can make new Gray Wardens he replies that he can't as all the archdemon blood has vanished.

He then pops up at Landsmeet and bigfoots your power play. All of a sudden Loghain can be made a Gray Warden, which was impossible earlier. Leaving you with choosing between having Alistair in and Loghain dead or Loghain in and Alistair sulking.

Being politically naive is no crime. But a Warden of his experience should know that he is proceeding with little or no intelligence and should at least attempt to gather some and learn the lay of the land and who the players are. When he pops up with his magically appearing archdemon blood he has made no attempt to learn anything about the other two Grey Wardens. None.

I really can not think of any suggestion or idea that he makes or has that is a good one. Riordan is a fathead with really great hair, sexy voice and scruffy beard. Even his idea about taking Alistair never ends well if you're a female Warden in a romance with the Alistair.

As for how he dies, well +10 for style, but -100 on sense. No warrior or rogue fights in game with just one blade. You either fight with two or with sword and shield. If I'm playing 'climb the dragon' I think I'd want two blades for better holding. Riordan is the worst sort of incompetent. A man whose appearance and history predispose you to like and trust him, while being eminently untrustworthy.

I just wish there were some way to leave him in his cell.

I am (playing as) Sebastian Cousland and I endorse this message. X^D *Laughs* Well said indeed.

I count it unfortunate that he couldn't be publicly dressed down for said incompetence (by younger less experienced Grey Wardens) and for his ridiculous suggestion. As I read in another forum in regards to him, "Just because that's how things have always been done doesn't mean they aren't totally stupid. If anything his words, actions and recent events should tell us that the Grey Wardens need an enema.

I endorse it too. The man is a fool, and a lier. No way to make other Grey Wardens indeed and yet Loghain can become one....pfft.

[Tremere]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

GabrielXL wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

 The first time I played DA:O I was actually impressed by him, but I now know why the Orlesian Wardens sent him. It isn't because he is from Ferelden (he has a funny accent after all, so a lot of good that's going to do). It's because he's a screw up.

He gets captured because he believes Howe. The dude is a rogue and he drinks poison. He believes a nobleman that no one in Ferelden trusts, other than the Couslands (look what that got them). Instead of asking around he gets tricked by the regent's spymaster.

Next, he then withholds important information when he meets the remaining two Gray Wardens in Howe's palace. That may be excusable because of weakness from harsh treatment. But if you ask him if he can make new Gray Wardens he replies that he can't as all the archdemon blood has vanished.

He then pops up at Landsmeet and bigfoots your power play. All of a sudden Loghain can be made a Gray Warden, which was impossible earlier. Leaving you with choosing between having Alistair in and Loghain dead or Loghain in and Alistair sulking.

Being politically naive is no crime. But a Warden of his experience should know that he is proceeding with little or no intelligence and should at least attempt to gather some and learn the lay of the land and who the players are. When he pops up with his magically appearing archdemon blood he has made no attempt to learn anything about the other two Grey Wardens. None.

I really can not think of any suggestion or idea that he makes or has that is a good one. Riordan is a fathead with really great hair, sexy voice and scruffy beard. Even his idea about taking Alistair never ends well if you're a female Warden in a romance with the Alistair.

As for how he dies, well +10 for style, but -100 on sense. No warrior or rogue fights in game with just one blade. You either fight with two or with sword and shield. If I'm playing 'climb the dragon' I think I'd want two blades for better holding. Riordan is the worst sort of incompetent. A man whose appearance and history predispose you to like and trust him, while being eminently untrustworthy.

I just wish there were some way to leave him in his cell.

I am (playing as) Sebastian Cousland and I endorse this message. X^D *Laughs* Well said indeed.

I count it unfortunate that he couldn't be publicly dressed down for said incompetence (by younger less experienced Grey Wardens) and for his ridiculous suggestion. As I read in another forum in regards to him, "Just because that's how things have always been done doesn't mean they aren't totally stupid. If anything his words, actions and recent events should tell us that the Grey Wardens need an enema.

I endorse it too. The man is a fool, and a lier. No way to make other Grey Wardens indeed and yet Loghain can become one....pfft.

*nods* In agreement. :^)

I also noticed that folks here were saying that Alistair knew nothing about how to kill the Archdemon, but I don't think that's true. As I recall, when speaking to Duncan before the battle and your character asks "What if the Archdemon appears."... Alistair says (unequivocally), "We soil our drawers that's what." Also, if I'm not mistaken, if you question Alistair after meeting him in Ostagar, he tells you quite a bit about the Grey Wardens and the Archdemon. Based on that knowledge, Alistair was hardly ignorant about the Archdemon and what it took to end the blight.

Modifié par GabrielXL, 29 novembre 2011 - 05:03 .

[ShimmeringDjinn]

@GabrielXL
I believe Alistair did indeed have some knowledge about the Archdemon, but he certainly didn't know a Warden had to die while killing it, judging by his reaction when "Mr I'm an idiot Riodan" finally gets a round to tell your PC at Redcliff anyway.

EDIT to add. I honestly don't know why Bioware bothered to put Riodan in the game, well other than to give the player a load of bad news and provide false hope that he/she may surivive of course. He serves zero purpose apart from entertainment value when he falls to his death from the back of a Dragon *Evil snicker*

Modifié par ShimmeringDjinn, 29 novembre 2011 - 05:14 .

[Tremere]

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

EDIT to add. I honestly don't know why Bioware bothered to put Riodan in the game, well other than to give the player a load of bad news and provide false hope that he/she may surivive of course. He serves zero purpose apart from entertainment value when he falls to his death from the back of a Dragon *Evil snicker*

*LOL* A fitting ending if you ask me.

Modifié par GabrielXL, 29 novembre 2011 - 05:32 .

[ShimmeringDjinn]

GabrielXL wrote...

ShimmeringDjinn wrote...

EDIT to add. I honestly don't know why Bioware bothered to put Riodan in the game, well other than to give the player a load of bad news and provide false hope that he/she may surivive of course. He serves zero purpose apart from entertainment value when he falls to his death from the back of a Dragon *Evil snicker*

*LOL* A fitting ending if you ask me.

Same lol.