73 réponses à ce sujet

[mrhateful]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...



If DA wasn't about the darkspawn and archdemon it would have been better. Basically, take the combat system/rules and all of the other things about the game (except for a few annoying things) and have a completely different story and setting.

^ this is all that takes to make the best RPG ever.. also PLEASE stop focusing on graphics and hire some better story writers.. i read somewhere that EA will focus more on graphics WHY?!? i mean it already looks really good just more gameplay is all i want 

[Randomname1212]

Expansion came out? My my... I did miss a lot.

[MGeezer]

I think the OP's basic point that the ultimate villain of DAO was not that interesting was a fault of the game. Great fantasies neeed great villains--preferably multiple ones.

I think the intent of the writers was that we would be so interested in the well developed Loghain story that we wouldn't be bothered by how boring the Archdemon and the dark spawn were. For me, this worked abit, but still left an anticlimacfic ending. I'd say more but this is a no-spoiler forum. Discussions involving the end of a game, where the OP felt it flell apart, work better on the spoiler forum.

Modifié par MGeezer, 26 mars 2010 - 08:04 .

[MindYerBeak]

You fanboys who accuse this poster of trolling need to do your research (after school prefereably). He's entitled to his opinion without being insulted, okay, kiddies? Grow up and allow more mature posters than yourselves to have their say, even though it may not agree with your idiotic and simplistic replies and views. You're nutters, yourselves being the Trolls, not he. Ever heard of free speech? Allow this poster to have his say, no matter how much it may disagree with your point of view. Argue the point sensibly instead of making false fanboy accusations against a poster explaining his personal point of view. Until you can do so stay in your classrooms and ask Mr. Teach to teach you the meaning of democracy and free speech. You have a lot of growing up to do.

[BanksHector]

I do not have a problem with the darkspawn being the main story in the first game, but in a second I do think that if darkspawn was a smaller part and had another main bad guy would work out really good. I think they could have a more indepth plot with the enemies being something other then darkspawn.

I really enjoyed DAO and yes I do think they could make the second one to be better then the first.

Modifié par BanksHector, 26 mars 2010 - 11:01 .

[taine]

MGeezer wrote...

I think the OP's basic point that the ultimate villain of DAO was not that interesting was a fault of the game. Great fantasies neeed great villains--preferably multiple ones.
 

Writing a good villain is really, really hard. Probably the single hardest thing to write, especially in a game. A really good villain should obviously be absolutely dastardly, ruthless, cunning, and make the protagonists' life (lives) as miserable as is feasibly possible. They should also have a very good *reason* for what they are doing, beyond just being crazy or power hungry. That isn't interesting. A good reference is Scorpius from Farscape, or (dun dun dun) Irenicus from BG2. 

Loghain had many of the characteristics of a good villain, but he was too detached from the main story. Too detached from the player. Almost all of his villainy went on in cut scenes which did not feature your party. Howe was actually the much better villain, at least for Human Nobles. The arch-demon was just a Big Foozle ™ and was pretty uninteresting and certainly not compelling (sorry). This was also a problem in Awakening, though I think the Architect actually had the beginnings of a very good nemesis -- the game was simply too short and insubstantial for it to get good. 

MindYerBreak wrote...


 Until you can do so stay in your classrooms and ask Mr. Teach to teach you the meaning of democracy and free speech. You have a lot of growing up to do.

Since you insist on being arrogant about it, I feel the need to educate you -- free speech as defined in the constitution does not entitle you to say anything you like without consequence. It simply guarantees you the right to speak your mind without being prosecuted by the government. It is not a free pass to be an ****. That said, the OP was not being an **** and brought up valid points. You also don't need to be a jerk about it.

Modifié par taine, 26 mars 2010 - 11:18 .

[danielkx]

Haexpane wrote...

danielkx wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Side note: I have yet to play Baldur's Gate, I hope all this praise for it isn't just nostalgia or w/e because all this talk about it makes me want to try it out.

What makes BG 1 and 2 so hard for me to play today is the horrific DnD 2nd edition ruleset... primarily the combat system. I cannot stand it at all and it prevents me from playing it right now. I tried playing BG2 a month before DA was released. After an hour I couldn't take it because of the combat rules.

I am not a fan of DnD in general, but it would be awesome if the game at least used the D20 system instead of thac0.

That said, DA disappointed for me for two reason; 1) I had absurdly high expectations that could almost never have been reached, 2) Even without the high expectations, when replaying the game, it just wasn't fun. For me it was the atmosphere and the feeling of constant war that took away from the game. In BG and kotor, and even Jade Empire (which had terrible combat system), you were on a journey/adventure trying to figure something out (JE had less of this than BG and kotor). In DA you are at war, you are going to towns/cities trying to recruit for the big battle. That isn't fun for me. 

If DA wasn't about the darkspawn and archdemon it would have been better. Basically, take the combat system/rules and all of the other things about the game (except for a few annoying things) and have a completely different story and setting. That is asking a lot and I doubt a sequel will be anything like that.

Most likely the sequel will be highly related to DA and will once again be about darkspawn. Going into towns that have been devistated by the darkspawn leaves the towns lifeless and dull. Nothing interesting or fun about that.

It was still a good game, but nowhere near the top of the list for best game ever or best rpg ever.

ROFL I love how he calls every great BW game "terrible" and they all have "Terrible combat systems"  ummm you are in the vast minority with those opinions.

While Jade EMpire/KOTOR and DA are indeed too easy, to call their combat systems "terrible" is simply hatin

Huh? What are you talking about? I never said kotor had a terrible combat system, I said Jade Empire did.

And I called every BioWare game terrible? Did you actually read the damn post? Because I dislike certain aspects of the game does not mean I am saying the games are terrible. Kotor is great, JE is very good despite the crappy combat, DA is good despite the fact that I dislike the theme and feel.

Wow, actually read the post before commenting. Stop assuming that criticism of certain aspects of a game equates to total dislike of the game.

Oh and even if I was in the vast minority with my opinions, why does that matter? I am in the vast minority in calling games like Crysis, Gears of War, Halo, Call of duty 4-6 and many other newer games, complete crap. Does that make my opinion wrong or less valid? Nope. Does it make other people wrong for liking the games I mentioned? Nope.

[Feraele]

mrhateful wrote...

Burglekut wrote...

No one cares about your rant. Half of your post isn't even on topic and should be removed from here.

Please go back to your storyless mario game and stop bringing utter garbage to this forum

EDIT: Actually forget that i just checked your other posts and it turns out your a troll so no more food for you

Speaking of utter garbage...yikes.   What was that messed up original OP post about anyways.  I note it rambled on for some length but all I got was NWN2 was better or some such.  

My suggestion would be ..that if you don't like DA:O or Awakening, you don't have to like it.   Easy enough isn't it?

[Feraele]

mrhateful wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...



If DA wasn't about the darkspawn and archdemon it would have been better. Basically, take the combat system/rules and all of the other things about the game (except for a few annoying things) and have a completely different story and setting.

^ this is all that takes to make the best RPG ever.. also PLEASE stop focusing on graphics and hire some better story writers.. i read somewhere that EA will focus more on graphics WHY?!? i mean it already looks really good just more gameplay is all i want 

Now you're insulting Mr Gaider, and Sheryl Chee and a few others.

So now is the time to pony up..and give us an example of YOUR writing.  Thus far ..from your Op post...I'm not impressed, good thing you aren't being paid for it.  

In other words, don't quit your day job.

[Eshaye]

I actually agree with the main statement of the OP, this story needs a more imposing enemy, I guess we're no longer impressed by big menacing dragons even undead ones, so mayhap we do need something more sophisticated, going to the Black City would be way cool.



However your title gives the impression of trolling considering Dragon Age most certainly did NOT fail. Maybe a less inflammatory title would have gone over better.

[taine]

Feraele wrote...

mrhateful wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...



If DA wasn't about the darkspawn and archdemon it would have been better. Basically, take the combat system/rules and all of the other things about the game (except for a few annoying things) and have a completely different story and setting.

^ this is all that takes to make the best RPG ever.. also PLEASE stop focusing on graphics and hire some better story writers.. i read somewhere that EA will focus more on graphics WHY?!? i mean it already looks really good just more gameplay is all i want 

Now you're insulting Mr Gaider, and Sheryl Chee and a few others.

So now is the time to pony up..and give us an example of YOUR writing.  Thus far ..from your Op post...I'm not impressed, good thing you aren't being paid for it.  

In other words, don't quit your day job.

Although I certainly don't think new writers are needed, I think it's possible to criticize someone's work without insulting them. The story of DA could have been better in some aspects. In other places, it was brilliantly written -- Orzammar on the whole really stands out in that regard, as do many individual characters. 

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

I thought Dragon Age's plot was good. I do agree somewhat with the OP in that it would help to have a true nemisis in Dragon Age 2. An evil mastermind, while cliche, is also quite nice to have instead of a horde of somewhat mindless darkspawn. The BG series did this well with Sarevok, then Jon Irenicus and finally the priest woman (Mellisan?) in ToB.





I think what the writers tried to do was give a universal threat in Dragon Age, and then make the factions each have antagonists which the player had to face to solve the big problem. The end boss, the arch demon, never really shows itself as a threat over being the biggest and baddest of the darkspawn. Sure it can raise an army, but there isn't a complex plan you have to defeat. In that, I can see why the OP might of been disappointed.





I kind of hope DA 2 has a plot structure similar to NWN 2's. What I mean by this is I hope there is an evil mastermind character of Qunari, Elf, Dwarf, Human or whatever new race. Another thing I hope for is to have multiple factions competing for different goals. While NWN 2's plot had some things which could be fixed, it did the multiple faction story beautifully I felt. It was hard to predict where the plot was going. In DA:O it was kind of easy to predict the final battle against the arch demon, even early on. You were given the main antagonist, you saw the main antagonist and you had a plan to defeat the antagonist soon after Ostagar. I think DA:O could follow a more dynamic plot like the BG series or NWN 2 and be even more successful. In this train of thought, I agree with the OP.

[Soilborn88]

If you actually expect a modern RPG to mirror the likes of Baldurs Gate 1, 2 , or Planscape -- you're just dreaming.

Most RPGs these days lack good stories and are often traded off for something that's more "eye appealing" or less complex so newer players to the genre could jump right in.

All though I have to disagree with your criticisms. Compared to the other RPGs on the market right now Dragon Age Origins is a refreshing, and has a return to old school feel to it. I think it's great, certainly not the best ever but it's one of the best RPGs released lately. Dragon Age Origins for PC and The Witcher are my top modern RPGs.

As for the Darkspawn I always thought the concept was cool. Ugly troll looking things that come in never ending hordes slaughtering armies of dwarfs, humans, and elf's with a bad ass dragon commanding them isn't a worthy enemy? What more could you possibly ask for?

My personal opinion is that you may just be an elitist or just attacking the game to be different from the majority. Be happy what with you got, because I assure you it's just wishful thinking to believe DA2 or any other RPG will even come close to BG 1, 2. Those days are LONG gone.

If you can't appreciate the roots that were returned to in Origins you will NEVER be satisfied with future releases because they will only get less and less complex.

Modifié par Soilborn88, 26 mars 2010 - 11:51 .

[danielkx]

Feraele wrote...

mrhateful wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...



If DA wasn't about the darkspawn and archdemon it would have been better. Basically, take the combat system/rules and all of the other things about the game (except for a few annoying things) and have a completely different story and setting.

^ this is all that takes to make the best RPG ever.. also PLEASE stop focusing on graphics and hire some better story writers.. i read somewhere that EA will focus more on graphics WHY?!? i mean it already looks really good just more gameplay is all i want 

Now you're insulting Mr Gaider, and Sheryl Chee and a few others.

So now is the time to pony up..and give us an example of YOUR writing.  Thus far ..from your Op post...I'm not impressed, good thing you aren't being paid for it.  

In other words, don't quit your day job.

Wow, so criticizing automatically means insulting. I do not like the story and theme of Dragon Age, and at the same time I do not think that Gaider did a poor job writing the story. Is that too difficult to understand? Gaider and the writing team did a good job writing the story, I just didn't like it.

Also, the most pointless retort someone can make when another person criticizing something is to say "Why don't you do it better!!" or anything like that. My job isn't to write stories, nor is it my highest level of skill. At the same time, I know a good story when I see/read one. I can recognize and criticize something even if I, personally, could not write or do something better. Does that mean I should not criticize because I am unable to produce a superior product? Of course not. It does, however, mean that I am able to and should voice my criticism in a reasonable way.

Come up with something better than, "Do it yourself" comments.

[VanDraegon]

mrhateful wrote...
failure is relative

it failed if it aspired to become the greatest RPG ever and a spiriual succesor of Baldurs gate 2..

it succesed if it aspired to be a good game

Your rant would hold more water if you registered your games and prove you actually own it. Furthermore, you really are not qualified to judge if it failed to become the spiritual succesor to BG2. That is Biowares call to make. They made both games and if they decide it is their succesor to a previous title, so be it. It is.

[LH000]

Feraele wrote...

mrhateful wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...



If DA wasn't about the darkspawn and archdemon it would have been better. Basically, take the combat system/rules and all of the other things about the game (except for a few annoying things) and have a completely different story and setting.

^ this is all that takes to make the best RPG ever.. also PLEASE stop focusing on graphics and hire some better story writers.. i read somewhere that EA will focus more on graphics WHY?!? i mean it already looks really good just more gameplay is all i want 

Now you're insulting Mr Gaider, and Sheryl Chee and a few others.

So now is the time to pony up..and give us an example of YOUR writing.  Thus far ..from your Op post...I'm not impressed, good thing you aren't being paid for it.  

In other words, don't quit your day job.

He was just criticizing, little harsh maybe, but hardly harsher than does poor story of DA:O deserve. Writers did some good job on DA:O, but surely not so much when writing main plot itself. One could expect better and more original story from porn film. Average schoolchild has potential to write story superior to the one of DA:O.  

[thegreateski]

Why Dragon age failed and why Dragon age 2 can be a smash hit

Were we playing the same game?

also

Why does everyone think that the game is about killing the Archdemon? That's your JOB as a Grey Warden.

The game is about resolving the political difficulties of Ferelden and amassing an army to defeat the blight. Actually DEAFEATING the blight is a sub-plot at best.

Modifié par thegreateski, 27 mars 2010 - 01:07 .

[Mlai00]

To all who say Darkspawn and Archdemon aren't interesting... well, that's true but you're missing the point if you want them to be interesting.

Look at LOTR... are Sauron and the orcs interesting? No, it was Saruman who was interesting. Denethor who was interesting. Like the orcs/Sauron, darkspawn/archdemon is just a force of nature meant to be backdrop for the more intimate, human stories. Think of the archdemon more as a Michael Bay Armageddon asteroid.

[LH000]

Mlai00 wrote...

To all who say Darkspawn and Archdemon aren't interesting... well, that's true but you're missing the point if you want them to be interesting.
Look at LOTR... are Sauron and the orcs interesting? No, it was Saruman who was interesting. Denethor who was interesting. Like the orcs/Sauron, darkspawn/archdemon is just a force of nature meant to be backdrop for the more intimate, human stories. Think of the archdemon more as a Michael Bay Armageddon asteroid.

You has a point, a good story could be done way you describe, but DA:O hasn't its Saruman.( Also, you can't do wrong if you'll make "background" which you claim Darkspawn/Archdemon are more interesting. ) If DA:O has it's Saruman than most people would probably call him to be main "villain", but Loghain just can't substitute. Neither Loghain nor Archdemon were done well enough (though I like Loghain, I just don't find him to be good "villain" enough to have boring archdemon ).  Also, I believe that good (RPG) story could be done without good villains, but story of DA:O has more problems than that.

And also, I have found Sauron to be more interesting in LOTR (not film version) than Saruman...    

[LH000]

thegreateski wrote...

Why Dragon age failed and why Dragon age 2 can be a smash hit

Were we playing the same game?

also

Why does everyone think that the game is about killing the Archdemon? That's your JOB as a Grey Warden.

The game is about resolving the political difficulties of Ferelden and amassing an army to defeat the blight. Actually DEAFEATING the blight is a sub-plot at best.

In fact, I think that game is actually about gathering your army... 

[JBurke]

Oh wow, I haven't laughed in so long... oh... wait... you're serious?

[Eshaye]

LH000 wrote...

And also, I have found Sauron to be more interesting in LOTR (not film version) than Saruman...    

I don't know, Sauron is only very interesting if you've read The Silmarillion, and Loghain a lot more appealing if you've read The Stolen Throne. ;P 

[frayjog]

MindYerBeak wrote...

You fanboys who accuse this poster of trolling need to do your research (after school prefereably). He's entitled to his opinion without being insulted, okay, kiddies? Grow up and allow more mature posters than yourselves to have their say, even though it may not agree with your idiotic and simplistic replies and views. You're nutters, yourselves being the Trolls, not he. Ever heard of free speech? Allow this poster to have his say, no matter how much it may disagree with your point of view. Argue the point sensibly instead of making false fanboy accusations against a poster explaining his personal point of view. Until you can do so stay in your classrooms and ask Mr. Teach to teach you the meaning of democracy and free speech. You have a lot of growing up to do.

Not that I disagree with the fact that people should be able to express their opinions, but LOL @ free speech and democracy.  This is the internet, not the U.S.

[SeanMurphy2]

I think the Blight is meant to be a force of nature that prompts the behaviour of other characters and factions. The crisis creates opportunity and change across the whole Kingdom.

I think it ends up being a broader story about what is happening in the different places. Rather than being as tightly focused on Loghain or the darkspawn.

Ideally it would be good to have the Loghain story happening throughout the midgame to gradually build mystery and tension. Rather than as a big chunk in the Landsmeet segment.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 27 mars 2010 - 05:00 .