98 réponses à ce sujet

[Kangasniemi]

smudboy wrote...

Kangasniemi wrote...
Ok, you kinda missed my point. Having simple CQC that compliments the shooting is OK. Turning Shepard a cyberninjapirate is not. Punching and kicking yes, dropping them, with limitations, yes, removing their weapon, maybe with heavy limitations. Grapling means you ****ed up and you are fighting for your life, so no. And using enemies as shields hell no, there are way too many stupid things with this one (weapon penetration etc.).

The MGS series is based on steath, so it's realistic that it has heavy CQC (from Snake Eater on). Don't get me wrong I love MGS series. ME series on the other hand is not based on stealth and it should not be. So implementing a CQC system like MGS just would not work.

How does grapling mean you ****ed up?  The idea is basic CQC aside from "elbowing".  I'd imagine a biotic could pull off some lethal punches/kicks.

What's wrong with using enemies as shields in a cover-based shooter?  This seems a rather simple, tactical concept which complements an existing playstyle (Vanguard.)  Instead of charging in and trying to shotgun everything to death, you can either use an emeny as a shield for a offensive/defensive tactics.  (Imagine instead of biotically charging you biotically charge and grab.  I never quite understood how hurling your entire body at someone would be an effective attack, but nevermind that.)

Look at the Soldier that's depleted his/her heat sinks.  All he's got is his elbow.  A Soldier who's an expert at fighting can only use his elbow.  Oh right, he's got a knockdown skill, the Concussive Shot.  A knockdown move.  How that even works is beyond me.

In ME you kill anything that movies.  Although I will admit giving Shepard a tranq gun would possibly make him more Paragon, I don't think that's a possibility.  (Unless BW wants to retcon the game again...)

Gears of War 2 has their Meat Shield tactic (picking up dead bodies.)

In a cutscene, Shepard twists a Sentinel's neck, as does Thane.  (As opposed to Thane being invisible/Jack being a biotic punching god, and Samara flying.)  If enemies are reacting to certain attacks/hits on their body, surely they can react differently to a grab/submission hold/be used for cover.

Why?  Because ME2 is all:1. find cover, 2. pop out and shoot/biotic, or as a Vanguard 1. Charge, 2. Shotgun.  For the entire game.  It needs variation, and not more heavy weapons.  Controlling the battlefield (pulling an enemy to you, going to them) makes a battle dynamic and more strategic, if you're forcing a change in position and enemy tactics.  The use of grenades are gone, so all ME2 really has is Shockwave and Singularity.  And that's if their armor is down.

You might want to try reading a couple of posts, from the thread, before replying:

My post in this very thread explaining why the body shield thing won't work

And the grapling thing: if you are using weapons, you should keep distance from the enemy. If you are making sweet man love with an enemy (ie. wrestling) you have completely, utterly ****ed up by giving up the distance between you and the enemy. So intentionaly trying to dry hump an enemy when you have weapons to use is retarted.

As for soldier who has depleted all his ammo, well he deserves to die. Anyone with an aim that bad does not deserve to live.

And as for GoW and Meat shield tactics, do you really want to give referense to a game where all the "dialogue" is done my grunting, and men walk around in suits of "armor" that look like they were raped by teddy bears. The dictionary of the GoW universe does not have words like realism or style in it. Cliffy B doesn't know what these words mean either. Coincidence? I'll let you deside.

[smudboy]

Kangasniemi wrote...
You might want to try reading a couple of posts, from the thread, before replying:

My post in this very thread explaining why the body shield thing won't work

And the grapling thing: if you are using weapons, you should keep distance from the enemy. If you are making sweet man love with an enemy (ie. wrestling) you have completely, utterly ****ed up by giving up the distance between you and the enemy. So intentionaly trying to dry hump an enemy when you have weapons to use is retarted.

Vanguard has weapons.  His role is to get up close with the enemy.  If you charge an enemy, and he doesn't get knocked over, then what?  Hope your shotgun blast takes him out and those around him?  That's your only tactic?

You have not utterly failed if you're grappling with someone.  What if you don't have ammo?  What, has Snake now failed?  Shepard's only resolution is then to: 1) elbow him to death, 2) get behind said target and use them as a barrier from incoming fire while elbowing them, 3) run.  So because Snake's in a stealth game, it's okay for him to CQC?  What?

Dude, there's nothing wrong with grabbing an enemy.  Nothing.  Especially when we have a class whose main job is to get close to the enemy, when half that class make them a "combat specialist."  Whereupon combat specialization simply means "firing a gun?"

As for soldier who has depleted all his ammo, well he deserves to die. Anyone with an aim that bad does not deserve to live.

Well I'm glad you're not making games.

And as for GoW and Meat shield tactics, do you really want to give referense to a game where all the "dialogue" is done my grunting, and men walk around in suits of "armor" that look like they were raped by teddy bears. The dictionary of the GoW universe does not have words like realism or style in it. Cliffy B doesn't know what these words mean either. Coincidence? I'll let you deside.

I'm talking game play here.  The OP was bringing up ideas for melee weapons, and I was thinking why we'd need them.  I can see them working within the scope of the Vanguard/Combat classes, because their role is to get up close and shotgun.

Considering ME2's buggy cover system, and the forced-repetitive style of game play, I don't see how grabbing an enemy and using them as a shield/taking them down/having a variety of melee, within the ME universe, can't work.  Another thing I've yet to see is the use of Geth/Collector deployable energy shields.  Why can't Legion, or anyone by now, use this technology?

We see Saren commit suicide by shooting himself in the head, which either implies his kinetic barrier was down, or the barrier can't block point-blank shots.  Shepard easily snaps the neck of a Sentinel class user with their biotic armor on (Miranda's loyalty mission), which implies kinetic/biotic barriers can be bipassed via CQC.  Sure, these are cutscenes, and RPGs do this all the time (character in cutscene=god, party member=meh), but this feature is not only believable, it makes sense.  (Then there's Thane Kung-Fu, but that's pretty much RPG cliche #140.)

Modifié par smudboy, 27 mars 2010 - 01:54 .

[smudboy]

Kangasniemi wrote...
By weapon penetration i mean that if guns will shread shields, armor and health in seconds, they would easily go trough the body you are holding and hit you with more than enough force to injure/kill you. And seeing how little the merc companies care about their infantry men, they would just shoot through him to get you. Not the mention the Collectors or the geth.

As for fighting while holding a hostage, that's not plausible. Maybe if you were holding a civilian who is scared ****less then maybe, but a live soldier/merc would fight back hard. So you would have to use all your concentration holding the hostage in line. And using an unconcious body as cover would mean you must carry dead weight in front of you and then you couldn't aim nor shoot.

Those are the main reasons that body cover thing is not plausible.

So because we're holding a body, that has armor and shields, enemies shooting at us would shred armor and shields (of the body) in seconds?  So?  What's wrong with this?  Whether it's a few seconds or 10, defense is defense (look at the destructable crates.)

How is it not plausible?  There're many ways to explain/do an enemey hold.  Biotic charge/knockout, biotic hold, omni-tool overload/knockout (look at Kasumi's ability when she comes out), hell, just holding the guy by the neck and putting a gun to his head would cause him to take notice.  Look at MGS.  Snake uses a knife.  Tali has a knife.  And if they struggle, they get free?

Shepard's a big guy.  With lots of cybernetics.  If he can handle the Widow, chances are his ability to keep a dead man standing still (or crouching with them stationary) don't seem to far fetched.

And if not a body as a shield, why not just a real shield?  What's wrong with that?  No one says using cover has to be from only immovable/indestructible objects.

[AwesomeAuger]

Bioware worked pretty to make Mass Effect 2 a great shooter as well as a RPG, so I don't think they would. As long as it doesn't turn into combat like KOTOR or Dragon Age i'll be fine.

[TrueHD]

Why is this thread four pages?



Thank god you guys don't work for BioWare.

[Raphael diSanto]

lol.



That is all.

[GuardianAngel470]

Too late on the lightsaber point, biotic god had one. Already there.

[GuardianAngel470]

TrueHD wrote...

Why is this thread four pages?

Thank god you guys don't work for BioWare.

It's been four pages of no's.  So what you're saying is that because it has been four pages of no's and you're glad we don't work for bioware, that you want melee weapons in ME3.  You are entitled to your opinion but you are in the minority.

[Jarkill]

Default takedown: Bayonet

If Shepard has concussive blast: Fires a non-explosive rocket through the enemies head.

If Shephard has cloak: Stealth knife takedown from behind.

If Shephard has cryo blast: Gripping the enemies neck, freezing it, then snapping their head off.

If Shepard has incinerate: Gripping a part of the enemy and setting them on fire.

If Shepard has throw or pull: BIOTIC PUNCH TO THE FACE!

If Shepard has singularity: Vaporizing an enemy near instantly by creating a singularity inside them.





It won't happen, but it is awesome to think about it. Might be nice to see something like this in a cutscene (class based renegade interrupt assassinate or something), but doesn't fit gameplay. I always wondered why your character just grabs Morinths/Samaras arm instead of blowing them across the room with biotics, setting them on fire with an omni tool, etc. Except it would be more work, no point, and we'd miss out on a neck snap from the other person (or something).

[Kangasniemi]

smudboy wrote...

Kangasniemi wrote...
By weapon penetration i mean that if guns will shread shields, armor and health in seconds, they would easily go trough the body you are holding and hit you with more than enough force to injure/kill you. And seeing how little the merc companies care about their infantry men, they would just shoot through him to get you. Not the mention the Collectors or the geth.

As for fighting while holding a hostage, that's not plausible. Maybe if you were holding a civilian who is scared ****less then maybe, but a live soldier/merc would fight back hard. So you would have to use all your concentration holding the hostage in line. And using an unconcious body as cover would mean you must carry dead weight in front of you and then you couldn't aim nor shoot.

Those are the main reasons that body cover thing is not plausible.

So because we're holding a body, that has armor and shields, enemies shooting at us would shred armor and shields (of the body) in seconds?  So?  What's wrong with this?  Whether it's a few seconds or 10, defense is defense (look at the destructable crates.)

How is it not plausible?  There're many ways to explain/do an enemey hold.  Biotic charge/knockout, biotic hold, omni-tool overload/knockout (look at Kasumi's ability when she comes out), hell, just holding the guy by the neck and putting a gun to his head would cause him to take notice.  Look at MGS.  Snake uses a knife.  Tali has a knife.  And if they struggle, they get free?

Shepard's a big guy.  With lots of cybernetics.  If he can handle the Widow, chances are his ability to keep a dead man standing still (or crouching with them stationary) don't seem to far fetched.

And if not a body as a shield, why not just a real shield?  What's wrong with that?  No one says using cover has to be from only immovable/indestructible objects.

Well the corpse you would be holding would not have armor or shields then would it? So it would actually be as usefull as a bag of meat. And if it were an enemy with full shields and/or armor, why would you be able to grab him as a human shield but would not be able to use a biotic such as Pull on him? As it seams you only want some 5 sec shield boost, why not make barrier or some of the other shields boosts more powerful but reduce the time they will be up. That would't be as laughable as holding some enemy soldier as a hostage who meekly does every thing you want. The whole holding a gun at someones head and trying to move while in combat is just ridiculous.

I'll actually give you an example about the whole human shield thing and how bad it is. In a game called BloodRaine, the character had the ability to jump on other characters, suck their blood and regain health, and use the enemy as a human shield. You might think that's awesome and all. Well it wasn't. You could play the game with one, yes 1, button. Jump on enemy, drink 'till it's dead and jump on to the next one.

So gee wish, I surely want a same kind of system to ME.

And still on the grapling, yes you can do some fancy elbow locks and what-not wrestling moves all that you want but the bottom line is that no CQC move will ever be as effective as a shotgun blast or a burst from a rifle to the face. The ME2 has weapons that can actually kill people with one shot, or two. The truth is that even with biotic charge, a vanguard wielding a sword/pogostick/what-ever-fancy-pants-made-believe-sci-fi-sword-you-want would get raped before he could complete the first charge. (You know like when swords became obsolete after the musket was invented.)

Tell you what, some one already said this: enlist to an army, only use melee weapons and nothing else, get your ass to a combat zone, SURVIVE a combat with an enemy (and have video evidence that actually hapend) and after that I would consider you thoughts on über 1337 CQC and melee s1llz.

And no, Snake hasn't failed. He is just in a different genre of a game, with completely different game mechanics than ME. You could just as well compare the game mechanics of tetris and ME.

The only thing that does make little sense in your posts is the lack of deployable shields. But that would make the game way too easy.

[smudboy]

Kangasniemi wrote...
Well the corpse you would be holding would not have armor or shields then would it?

Who says it can't?  Most enemies just go the generic "into the ether" effect.

So it would actually be as usefull as a bag of meat. And if it were an enemy with full shields and/or armor, why would you be able to grab him as a human shield but would not be able to use a biotic such as Pull on him?

Because as we know in the ME universe, if you get really up close to someone?  Their armor or shields don't matter.  Unless you're using a gun.  (Saren, Shepard, Thane, etc.)

As it seams you only want some 5 sec shield boost, why not make barrier or some of the other shields boosts more powerful but reduce the time they will be up. That would't be as laughable as holding some enemy soldier as a hostage who meekly does every thing you want. The whole holding a gun at someones head and trying to move while in combat is just ridiculous.

I'm saying it would be interesting to see enemies, those things you have to kill, as more than potential weapons (look at exploding droids, or biotic pushing an enemy into another), and instead as a defensive barrier/tactic.

How is it ridiculous?  Having someone hold a knife/gun to your head in a submission hold would be kind of frightening.  It would cause the guy you're holding to go "whoa I better stop struggling or he'll kill me/hope I get a chance to get away" while the other enemies he's with will either go "oh crap I better not shoot my teammate/bah he's in the way, fire away."

I'll actually give you an example about the whole human shield thing and how bad it is. In a game called BloodRaine, the character had the ability to jump on other characters, suck their blood and regain health, and use the enemy as a human shield. You might think that's awesome and all. Well it wasn't. You could play the game with one, yes 1, button. Jump on enemy, drink 'till it's dead and jump on to the next one.

So minus the blood sucking, the idea is to jump from character to character to disable them.  Not seeing a problem here.  Not that I want Shepard becoming a cybernetic frog, but the idea of getting up close and disabiling/knocking a person down sounds just fine to me.

No one is stopping the player from shooting their enemies. This is an alternative to it, and, making Shepard more of a soldier aside from "a guy with a gun."  Biotic punches, omni-tool holds, whatever can work.

So gee wish, I surely want a same kind of system to ME.

And still on the grapling, yes you can do some fancy elbow locks and what-not wrestling moves all that you want but the bottom line is that no CQC move will ever be as effective as a shotgun blast or a burst from a rifle to the face. The ME2 has weapons that can actually kill people with one shot, or two. The truth is that even with biotic charge, a vanguard wielding a sword/pogostick/what-ever-fancy-pants-made-believe-sci-fi-sword-you-want would get raped before he could complete the first charge. (You know like when swords became obsolete after the musket was invented.)

Only in ME2, shotguns are guns.  Guns, unless they bypass shields or armor, have to shoot them.  Now there's nothing wrong with putting a gun barrel to an enemies head and firing the trigger.  That's still CQC.

And no, Snake hasn't failed. He is just in a different genre of a game, with completely different game mechanics than ME. You could just as well compare the game mechanics of tetris and ME.

It's still a 3rd person shooter.  Snake has melee moves and lots of guns.  Wait till Peace Walker comes out with 4 squad based team play, or just check out MGO where its' a combo of gun, submission, grenading tactics.  Yes, a different game, but you still haven't told me anything wrong with how CQC combat is a bad idea in the ME universe.

Tetris and ME?  Let me help. *stretches*

The only thing that does make little sense in your posts is the lack of deployable shields. But that would make the game way too easy.

"Easy/hard" is an argument of balance.  Whether deployable shields, portable shields, enemy as shields, item as shield, whatever.  The second idea is to use something as a defensive/offensive tactic and strategy.  This could work just as well with the Vanguard charge, along with a generic "grab" move for picking up an item or enemy (I guess that'd be GoW3?)  Remember I'm not arguing for melee weapons: I'm talking about melee combat, that is, CQC.  And it looks like Kasumi has a takedown maneuver.  Whether it bypasses shields/armor is irrelevant, but the fact she has one begs the question and relevance of CQC for Shepard.  (Also Grunt's headbutt charge.)

Oh wait he still has heat sinks.  Damn Grunt.  He's so ineffective

Modifié par smudboy, 27 mars 2010 - 02:46 .

[adam_grif]

Oh good, it's this thread again. We were running out of stupid recycled **** on the forums, I'm glad to see people are always willing to replenish our supplies.

[thegreateski]

I can make everybody happy.

[Highdragonslayer]

Yes, and we can enchant our weapons with lyrium to!

[adam_grif]

thegreateski wrote...

I can make everybody happy.

(right click + view image to see full sized)

[Mallissin]

Let's not make ME3 into L4D2. Thanks but no thanks.



You want melee weapons, wait for the next Star Wars game.

[Cascadus]

TrueHD wrote...

Why is this thread four pages?

Thank god you guys don't work for BioWare.

QFT.

[jakenou]

Symbol117 wrote...

Ahglock wrote...



Who doesn't love mechwarrior.

SWEET!  I had no clue that there was a 5th one being made.  You, sir, have just made my day! 

Woohoo!

(Sorry for off topic) - Is that game still on ice? I remember hearing about it last year and getting all excited, then they had some legullabaloo.

(Back on topic) - Nope. Melee weapons are for another game, another franchise... as much as I love a good katana battle or some good shuriken action.

Besides, I feel like the melee that exists is a little squirrely and could use some of it's own betterment.

[Ahglock]

jkthunder wrote...

Symbol117 wrote...

Ahglock wrote...



Who doesn't love mechwarrior.

SWEET!  I had no clue that there was a 5th one being made.  You, sir, have just made my day! 

Woohoo!

(Sorry for off topic) - Is that game still on ice? I remember hearing about it last year and getting all excited, then they had some legullabaloo.

(Back on topic) - Nope. Melee weapons are for another game, another franchise... as much as I love a good katana battle or some good shuriken action.

Besides, I feel like the melee that exists is a little squirrely and could use some of it's own betterment.

Off Topic response: The only legal thing is one of the mechs shown in the trailer was a unseen mech and while they own the international rights to show it, harmony gold(the US owners of robotech/macross license) are a bunch of ass wipes and wont let them use it in the USA.  I think the ruling is the mech has to be 30% different from the original robotech mech it was modeled after.    From what I have heard the game is otherwise on, they just might not be able ot put in a few of the mechs hey wanted to.  Unofrtunately the people making it have the least informative website in history, they take secrecy to new levels.  Smith and Tinker by the way. 

On Topic:  I wonder if melee should be expanded on a logical level.  People have pointed out how in cut scense melee is a bunch of kneck snapping fun for the whole family, do mass effect shields work like Dune shields where they stop fast moving objects but slower moving thigs like a grappling attack penetrate?

Anyways I think human shields is a cool idea, and it can be done well.  No I don't want it to beomce dead to rights where I chain a bunch of insant kill disarm moves together to wipe out a room, but usiing a dead body for cover to give you a second or two to get real cover or finish off the last guy works for me.  And other than that I am all for more animations past the elbow of doom.  But generally it is a shooting game so guns and powers should always reign supore,(though i have no problem with a biotic punch being up there with gun damage)

[Big Yam]

Nothing wrong with the good old elbow.

[FataliTensei]

Perhaps some kind of forearm blade in the armor, i would say that it should be a vanguard only weapon, maybe it should be combined with biotics and considered a skill? ya know charge in, use the skill for an instant kill or heavy damage and then switch to the shotgun?



Idk it would have to be well impemented and not get into the way of the shooter gameplay focus or people would complain

[Ataru13]

Since Shepard is a cyborg now, clearly the answer is that he needs to learn Panzer Kunst.

[Solomen]

Ataru13 wrote...

Since Shepard is a cyborg now, clearly the answer is that he needs to learn Panzer Kunst.

My femshep vanguard is named Alita