66 réponses à ce sujet

[Krasnoludek666555]

This is the thread for all who dislike the kin-slayer, traitor, lier, coward, honorless bastard Bhelen Aeducan, and support High-General Lord Pyral Harrowmont. I would actually be very happy if there was a chance to save his life in DA2 (yes, i know it is said that he'll die, but well... In Aweaking he is alive, so why couldn't he be in DA2?). He is honorable, cool, good dwarf and i want HIM for the king of Orzammar, not this bastard Bhelen. It would also be cool if you would get his advisors place, or something, and maybe ask him to change his politics against the casteless (he is tradicionalist, yes, but he is also a good dwarf, so i think he would understand) becose it is simply the only bad thing in him. And if there is no chance to save him, let US (Dwarf Noble PC's) rule the Orzammar in DA2!

[Drasanil]

Harrowmont=Epic Fail*



Bhelen is a far sight better than Harrowmont, at least he doesn't pretend to be some virtuous goody-two-shoes unlike Harrowmont, who is more preoccupied with maintaining the status quo at the expense of the dwarves' survival and fortune.



*With the exception of the dwarf noble origin.

[Krasnoludek666555]

Bah.With MY (Dwarf Noble) help, king Harrowmont would destroy all of the supporters of this stinking, cowardly, honorless, lying, treacherous bastard Bhelen. There wouldn't be any Civil War. We would also regain contact with Kal-Sharok, and with the city of Kal'Hirol in our hands, we would reclaim the rest of the Deep Roads.

[Drasanil]

Did I not mention the exception for dwarven nobles? *Looks up* Oh yes, I believe I did in fact.



Unless you're playing a dwarf noble Bhelen is clearly the better choice, and even if you are playing a dwarf noble it comes down to whether you prefer to keep power in the family or get revenge on Bhelen.

[Krasnoludek666555]

But Bhelen is so... so.... i just can't make him king. For me, and a lot of Dwarves (at least in other fantasy worlds, in DA it is rather unusual as seen on the example of Harrowmont who gets murdered becouse of being like good dwarf) the end doesn't justify the means. The means justify the end. hope that you know what i'm trying to say (english isn't my native language). Example : Nuclear bomb dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Good choice? ("end justifies the means" it ended war quickly, saved a lot of lives, ironically, and so on) For me was bad choice, becouse for me, means justify the end.

[Daerog]

Harrowmont is just as corrupt as Bhelen. He is okay with kidnapping elves and humans to make golems. He has no sympathy for the lower classes. Harrowmont is also weak and will do whatever the counsel wants him to do, even if it is only in their best interest and not for the rest of Orzammar. Harrowmont is also for more isolation from the surface, what a horrible idea for trade if they are constantly beseiged by darkspawn.
Just my opinion on the matter.
Anyway, surface dwarves > underground dwarves.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 26 mars 2010 - 07:25 .

[Krasnoludek666555]

Actually it is Branka herself who kidnap surfacers for the anvil after Harrowmont REFUSES to send here more volonteers. As for the sympathy of the lower classes, you are right, but it is becouse he is a tradicionalist. As i said, it is one of his few disadvantages. As for Bhelen... He doesn't have sympathy for ANYONE, he just wants to further his own power. Yes, he wants to bring change for Orzammar, winch is rather good idea, but at what cost? He kills his own brother, betrays his other brother, presumably kills his own FATHER. He also lie, betray and do anything to acomplish his goals. Bah, he even MURDERS Harromont after he PLEDGES HIS LOYALITY TO HIM, winch is just cruel and poinless. As i say, Harrowmont may not be 100% good, but he is a lot better than Bhelen for me.

[Gill Kaiser]

Harrowmont is a nice guy in person, but he makes a very weak ruler and has destructively conservative political views. As king he brings nothing but ruin to Orzammar.

Bhelen is a ruthless megalomaniacal bastard, but at least he genuinely seems to want to strengthen his people in spite of themselves.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The only reason I would think to help this pathetic excuse of a leader is if my PC would manipulate him into doing what my PC wants. But I love the dwarves too much, so nope. Bhelen it is.

[Krasnoludek666555]

If you like the Dwarves you'd never choose this ****. He is not like a dwarf AT ALL. A true Dwarf would NEVER betray or kill his brothers, unless they would be like Bhelen is. A true Dwarf would never kill HIS OWN FATHER. A true dwarf would never kill his opponent if he surrendered, unless it is a revenge. Bhelen is just ****, not a dwarf. And the idea of serving as Harrowmont advisor is actually quite good idea becouse it is possible to have yourself named as his succesor in the epilogue.

[Gill Kaiser]

Umm, yes they would. Dwarf culture is built upon Byzantine politics and backstabbing. Bhelen is probably the 'truest' dwarf we see.

[Krasnoludek666555]

Bah. It is all becouse DA Dwarves are not like they should be. Bhelen is the least true dwarf IN THE WORLD :/

[Costin_Razvan]

Bah. It is all becouse DA Dwarves are not like they should be. Bhelen is the least true dwarf IN THE WORLD :/

You don't know dwarf NOBLES then in other fantasy settings, They are not so far off from DA dwarf nobles. Also normal DA dwarf warriors are not unlike others from different fantasy settings.

I think Bhelen is a good dwarf, he is willing to go down in history as a tyrant to help his people, Castless and otherwise while not giving a **** about the noble class. I could care less he killed Trian, hell on my Dwarf Noble I killed Trian MYSELF because I really hated him with his arrogance.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 26 mars 2010 - 08:15 .

[Gilsa]

Has anyone played a commoner that sided with Harrowmont? I'm really curious what happens at the coronation ceremony, what Rica has to say to you after she's disowned you as her sibling. I was able to reload previous saves and play around with telling Harrowmont you've got a casteless sister and watching his reaction when he realizes he needs to look out for her to secure your cooperation. I'll probably end up making another casteless dwarf specifically to explore this story angle once I'm done messing around in Awakening. Unless someone already knows and can share! C'mon, there are a ton of comments that people pick dwarves for their evil playthroughs. No one sided with Harrowmont on the commoner? =p

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Harrowmont? The guy is pathetic. A burocratic weakling who lacks the testicles to be a real dwarf. Defender of a decaying status quo. Poison to the proud dwarven race. Really, a man who will put your request for aid in the Blight before the assembly to see if they will agree to help you? Get real. Only time I picked him as king was for my dwarf noble, who knew he was weak, and planned on jerking the throne back away from him once the Blight was done.



Sure, Bhelen is a ruthless, shameless bastard. So what? The dwarves need someone to drag them out of their decline, whether they want it or not. I don't like Bhelen as a man. I do, however, always choose him as a king for the dwarves because he is strong, ruthless, and determined to get things done, not debate the issues. He's an action man. And the dwarves need action. Not endless debate, plattitudes, or isolationist plattitudes from a kindly old grandpa.



For the record, I think Trian was an ass, and my dwarf noble happily killed him, without Bhelen's urging really needed. No proof he killed Endrin. Only rumor. And of course, rumor also states, if you listen to the criers, that Wardens worship demons, too.



Bhelen FTW.

[Nyaore]

Krasnoludek666555 wrote...

If you like the Dwarves you'd never choose this ****. He is not like a dwarf AT ALL. A true Dwarf would NEVER betray or kill his brothers, unless they would be like Bhelen is. A true Dwarf would never kill HIS OWN FATHER. A true dwarf would never kill his opponent if he surrendered, unless it is a revenge. Bhelen is just ****, not a dwarf. And the idea of serving as Harrowmont advisor is actually quite good idea becouse it is possible to have yourself named as his succesor in the epilogue.

Did you play the Dwarven Noble Origin out of curiosity? Because it's made quite clear that the kind of backstabbing policies that Bhelen employs are actually fairly common place in their world. The only thing that separates Bhelen from his kin is that he has a far larger amount of guile by comparison in regards to his peers.
I can't stand the bastard, but frankly I'd much rather have an intelligent - and ultimately independant - king on the throne as opposed to someone who only knows how to lead through compromise and capitulation. You don't have to be a good person to be a good ruler. Simple as that. Besides, neither of the candidates could be considered 'good men', and you're fooling yourself if you think that Harrowmont is all sunshine and roses. Just look at how he treats the casteless once he comes into power.

Modifié par Nyaore, 26 mars 2010 - 09:38 .

[Gill Kaiser]

Agreed. Bhelen subscribes to Machiavellian tactics, which I respect in a leader provided their motivation is the betterment of their kingdom.

[Efesell]

I can't stand Bhelen, but I can never bring myself to choose Harrowmont.

Plus I don't think there's a single good outcome to his rule in the Epilogue(s).

[Thor Rand Al]

Take Zevran with you when you go and talk with Harrowmont's guy when you first decide whether your gonna help him out or not. Zevran makes a very very good point.





I can't stand Bhelen either but he's better for the Dwarves and their future than Harrowmont.

[LadyDamodred]

You know, I'm sorta on the fence with this one. I have chosen both, but on my HNF 'perfect' playthrough, I went with Harrowmont b/c Bhelen's second sketched me out. sometimes it's the littlest things that can put you off of someone, and that dude did it for me.

[Sarah1281]

A true Dwarf would NEVER betray or kill his brothers, unless they would be like Bhelen is. A true Dwarf would never kill HIS OWN FATHER. A true dwarf would never kill his opponent if he surrendered, unless it is a revenge.

The previous King, Endrin, did just that. He tricked his brother into a proving with a murderer armed with a poisoned weapon and inherited the throne that way.



I'm actually disinclined to believe that Bhelen killed Endrin because he was old and on the decline from practically the moment Trian died and the DN was exiled. Sure, Bhelen could have been slowly poisoning him for a year but as sole heir he didn't need to and it would really be pushing his luck. Besides, a lot of Harrowmont supporters bring up Endrin having sent Bhelen away from his deathbed as proof that Endrin didn't want Bhelen to rule. I'll buy that; Endin was a strong traditionalist and Bhelen...not so much. If Bhelen wasn't allowed anywhere near Endrin then he couldn't have killed him, simple as that.



In fact, only Harrowmont was allowed by Endrin's side at the end which makes his claims that Endrin wanted him to lead, while believable, completely unsubstantiated. Harrowmont himself may have even killed Endrin - with his approval or not - in order to further hurt Bhelen's chances as people were already speculating that he killed Trian.



Besides, killing Harrowmont was a smart move. In the Landsmeet, don't marry Alistair to Anora and see what happens. Anora calls for Alistair's head to prevent future rebellions and Eamon calls for Anora's. Alistair won't kill her if he's unhardened but if he is then he just says he won't kill her while there is a good chance that he'll die stopping the Blight. Of course, that implies that afterwards he very well might. Killing your opponent in a medieval setting was not considered cruel or over-the-top, it's just common sense. If they don't die they must be exiled (like Alistair if you get Anora to spare him) or else rebellions will spring up in their name, although even exile isn't always enough to prevent that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...

You know, I'm sorta on the fence with this one. I have chosen both, but on my HNF 'perfect' playthrough, I went with Harrowmont b/c Bhelen's second sketched me out. sometimes it's the littlest things that can put you off of someone, and that dude did it for me.

I agree Bhelen's second is annoying. And he is the one who makes your first impression vis a vis Bhelen (especially if you are not a dwarf). Bhelen should have been more considerate about his second. Bhelen himself is a fairly eloquant and charming (well for a dwarf). His second lacks that.

[LadyDamodred]

Indeed. Where as, conversely, I find Harrowmont's second to be very well spoken. This is probably the one decision in the entire game that is the hardest for my HNF to decide. She regrets the ending he comes to, but not her choice. Ah well.