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[Krasnoludek666555]

Yea, but i think it would be nice to be his succesor as a dwarf noble PC. It is quite possible becouse after DA:O you become Paragon and Harrowmont himself names you as his successor. So, even if Harrowmont is a weak king, YOU can be a great king! It would be cool to be king in DA2.

[sylvanaerie]

Krasnoludek666555 wrote...


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A true Dwarf would NEVER betray or kill his brothers, unless they would be like Bhelen is. A true Dwarf would never kill HIS OWN FATHER. A true dwarf would never kill his opponent if he surrendered, unless it is a revenge

The previous King, Endrin, did just that. He tricked his brother into a proving with a murderer armed with a poisoned weapon and inherited the throne that way.


->Where did you find this information? I knew that Endrin's brother died during a proving, but i thougth that it was an accident, or maybe a murder but certainly not ordered by Endrin himself.

You seem to think by your post dwarves are some nice noble Tolkienesqe race...did you close your eyes in Dust Town? did you not see Zerlinda? Or Nadezda? that alone should make you pause before defending the status quo (which is all Harrowmont does). 

Dwarves in DA are consistant with their characters as they are written. This is Bioware's story and they didn't get all wonky on the continuity, they told it pretty much consistantly.  I too remember reading it about Endrin killing his brother...It may have been in the Codex but not entirely sure.

Bhelen charismatic, ruthless, selfish strong leader vs Harrowmont compromising, and weak.  For the Dwarves the best solution in the long run is to get their asses dragged into the current millenium and deal with their problems rather than just quietly diminishing into extinction.

[Krasnoludek666555]

Yes, it is true that i am kind of blinded by the Tolkienish/Warhammer vision of the Dwarf race. I see that they are different in DA, but it is quite diffucult to accept for me. I like to think of them like of a race winch would rather extinct than lose its honor. Actually, it does in most of fantasy worlds (Middle-Earth, Warhammers Old World). Probably i would be talking different if i were a dwarf myself, becouse extiction of enitre race is becouse of perserving tradition and honor is rather extreme. But as i said, for me, and a lot of dwarves in other fantasy world, means justify the end, not the opposite. And if you support choosing Bhelen for King, then you probably also support dropping nuclear bombs on the Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I do not.

[sylvanaerie]

Krasnoludek666555 wrote...

Yes, it is true that i am kind of blinded by the Tolkienish/Warhammer vision of the Dwarf race. I see that they are different in DA, but it is quite diffucult to accept for me. I like to think of them like of a race winch would rather extinct than lose its honor. Actually, it does in most of fantasy worlds (Middle-Earth, Warhammers Old World). Probably i would be talking different if i were a dwarf myself, becouse extiction of enitre race is becouse of perserving tradition and honor is rather extreme. But as i said, for me, and a lot of dwarves in other fantasy world, means justify the end, not the opposite. And if you support choosing Bhelen for King, then you probably also support dropping nuclear bombs on the Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I do not.

Hmm thats quite a leap that because someone supports Bhelen they must think dropping nuclear bombs is a nice thing.  What (aside from insulting the Bhelen supporters) is your logic behind that argument?  For the record though since you asked I believe those responsible did the only thing they felt at that time they could do.  Do I think its right or wrong? I can't say as I was not alive in those days so I don't know what was going through anyone's mind.  I know it caused untold numbers of deaths and misery but it probably also saved a lot of lives too.  Not going to argue this point as it has no place in Dragon Age since we don't get an option to nuke the darkspawn (though admittedly I WOULD do that if given a choice).

[ZaroktheImmortal]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Krasnoludek666555 wrote...

Yes, it is true that i am kind of blinded by the Tolkienish/Warhammer vision of the Dwarf race. I see that they are different in DA, but it is quite diffucult to accept for me. I like to think of them like of a race winch would rather extinct than lose its honor. Actually, it does in most of fantasy worlds (Middle-Earth, Warhammers Old World). Probably i would be talking different if i were a dwarf myself, becouse extiction of enitre race is becouse of perserving tradition and honor is rather extreme. But as i said, for me, and a lot of dwarves in other fantasy world, means justify the end, not the opposite. And if you support choosing Bhelen for King, then you probably also support dropping nuclear bombs on the Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I do not.

Hmm thats quite a leap that because someone supports Bhelen they must think dropping nuclear bombs is a nice thing.  What (aside from insulting the Bhelen supporters) is your logic behind that argument?  For the record though since you asked I believe those responsible did the only thing they felt at that time they could do.  Do I think its right or wrong? I can't say as I was not alive in those days so I don't know what was going through anyone's mind.  I know it caused untold numbers of deaths and misery but it probably also saved a lot of lives too.  Not going to argue this point as it has no place in Dragon Age since we don't get an option to nuke the darkspawn (though admittedly I WOULD do that if given a choice).

I believe the connection he made with those two was that they are The ends justify the means sort of thing. Though they are very different.

[sylvanaerie]

I'd probably be the kind of warden Ser Gilmore describes, burning villages to save them from the Darkspawn so I guess maybe my warden would be an "Ends justifies the means" if I could save 1000s by sacrificing one village (Though prefereably the sacrifice would be my own NOT someone else's). Just because I recognize that there may be sacrifices doesn't mean I stand there grinning with the torch ready to toss.

Its one of the reasons I love the US ending so much. Dying for another human being (or humanity for that respect) is the highest love you can show.

Also it may be a bit Darwinish but its been shown that a species that lacks the capacity to adapt and change WILL go extinct.  The dwarves are pressed by darkspawn on one side, brutal infighting in their own city and a low birth rate (one reason you have so many casteless women going "noble hunting" not the ONLY reason but one of them).  Bhelen is NOT a nice guy I never said Yay Bhelen and I have put Harrowmont on the throne before but look at the achievement icons. Harrowmont's is a dinosaur...not saying that dinosaurs and extinction are in any way related but...there you have it.

Bhelen allows the casteless to take up arms against the darkspawn (making them a LOT more useful to the city than just as doggy doo to wipe their feet on) of course this angers the warrior and noble castes cause they think all casteless are just doggy doo.  Plus he got rid of that damn assembly. If I could have done that I would have bunch of stupid deshyrs.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 27 mars 2010 - 02:44 .

[Sarah1281]

Plus if you make Harrowmont ruler you talk to the dwarves in Redcliffe before the final fight and they are saying that one of the noble houses still haven't committed to the war against the Blight, manuevering to try a take over after everyone else is dead. He can't lead worth beans.
 

Actually, this happens no matter who is on the throne. Since Orzammar is strongly hinted at being the last area done (in that it's been nearly a year since the events of either dwarf origin and the civil war in Ferelden after Ostagar was going on for nearly a year) then whoever the new king is is to busy consolidating his power and sending troops to make any sweeping reforms yet.

I like to think of them like of a race winch would rather extinct than lose its honor. 

Well, the APPEARANCE of honor is extremely important to the nobles. It's why they all pretend not to know about any of the things going on behind the scenes. And even though letting casteless fight saves noble/warrior lives and deals with the overpopulation of Dust Town and also weakening the carta as the casteless have other options and thus can only be seen as a practical option, the nobles and warriors feel giving the casteless the right to die with honor is unacceptable and would happily allow their civilization to continue self-destructing for the sake of preserving their traditions - which includes extremely ruthless political tactics.

Where did you find this information? I knew that Endrin's brother died during a proving, but i thougth that it was an accident, or maybe a murder but certainly not ordered by Endrin himself.

Yes, Bhelen is the one to tell you his but it only comes up as a DN if you ask why he would betray you. .He says it's nothing personal but that's how the system works and you would have done the same had he not beaten you to it (and if you say you weren't plotting against him or Trian then he says you're just about as fit to be King as Harrowmont which, as the epilogue illustrates and is hinted throughout the game, isn't very fit at all since everyone else IS willing to do whatever it takes). Theh to further prove his point he brings up Endrin and asks if you don't find it a little convenient that a second son just hapened to become King after he just happened to convnce his older brother to enter a proving where his opponent just happened to be a murderer who just happened to be armed with a poisoned blade. Sure it could be a coincidence but given everything we know of dwarven society...I kind of doubt it.

[Reaverwind]

Drasanil wrote...

Did I not mention the exception for dwarven nobles? *Looks up* Oh yes, I believe I did in fact.

Unless you're playing a dwarf noble Bhelen is clearly the better choice, and even if you are playing a dwarf noble it comes down to whether you prefer to keep power in the family or get revenge on Bhelen.

Bah - revenge on Bhelen? He didn't pull his antics without help, and my DNF didn't miss how happy the Assembly was to condemn her to the Deep Roads. Ironically, Bhelen is one of the few willing to take the Darkspawn threat seriously and act in the long term against them - having Bhelen turn tradition on its head and upsetting the Assembly in the process was a nice bonus. Besides, the Chantry is ever so grateful for my DNF's assistance, so Bhelen now gets to deal with a perpetual thorn in his side. Dwarf politics at its finest, if I do say so myself.

[sylvanaerie]

Reaverwind wrote...

Drasanil wrote...

Did I not mention the exception for dwarven nobles? *Looks up* Oh yes, I believe I did in fact.

Unless you're playing a dwarf noble Bhelen is clearly the better choice, and even if you are playing a dwarf noble it comes down to whether you prefer to keep power in the family or get revenge on Bhelen.

Bah - revenge on Bhelen? He didn't pull his antics without help, and my DNF didn't miss how happy the Assembly was to condemn her to the Deep Roads. Ironically, Bhelen is one of the few willing to take the Darkspawn threat seriously and act in the long term against them - having Bhelen turn tradition on its head and upsetting the Assembly in the process was a nice bonus. Besides, the Chantry is ever so grateful for my DNF's assistance, so Bhelen now gets to deal with a perpetual thorn in his side. Dwarf politics at its finest, if I do say so myself.

Did you get Brother whatshisname to start his chantry there? or is this in reference to Dagna (who btw is cuter than the law allows) and her epilogue about the Apostate mages gathering there?

[Lethias]

Well i don't think making Behlen a king is the "better" choice at all. I mean he is clearly corrupt, kinslayer, and only want power, witch isn't true about Harrowmount. Yes the epilogue says that Behlen became a strong ruler and reformer etc etc, but a man who will do anything to achieve power and then become a king will most likely be a tyrant. I mean after becoming king he decide to take care of people and make Orzamar a better place to live, well i don't think so, he will only care to keep hes power.

So without knowing the epilogue i think Harrowmount is clearly the better choice (if we look at whos the better man and have better politics). Of course when I found out that Harrowmount was too weak to rule and stuff, I wasn't so sure anymore.

[Reaverwind]

Lethias wrote...

Well i don't think making Behlen a king is the "better" choice at all. I mean he is clearly corrupt, kinslayer, and only want power, witch isn't true about Harrowmount. Yes the epilogue says that Behlen became a strong ruler and reformer etc etc, but a man who will do anything to achieve power and then become a king will most likely be a tyrant. I mean after becoming king he decide to take care of people and make Orzamar a better place to live, well i don't think so, he will only care to keep hes power.
So without knowing the epilogue i think Harrowmount is clearly the better choice (if we look at whos the better man and have better politics). Of course when I found out that Harrowmount was too weak to rule and stuff, I wasn't so sure anymore.

Bhelen being a kinslayer is actually in doubt, unless you're playing the DN origin and didn't bump off Trian yourself (my DNF did). My DN tried confronting Bhelen about what happened, and damned if he didn't actually have good reason (Trian and you were practically guaranteed to bump each other off anyway, with him justifiably worried about being next, because that's the way dear old dad gained his throne). As for being corrupt - so is Harrowmount - the man BUYS his votes for crying out loud.

[sylvanaerie]

Reaverwind wrote...

Lethias wrote...

Well i don't think making Behlen a king is the "better" choice at all. I mean he is clearly corrupt, kinslayer, and only want power, witch isn't true about Harrowmount. Yes the epilogue says that Behlen became a strong ruler and reformer etc etc, but a man who will do anything to achieve power and then become a king will most likely be a tyrant. I mean after becoming king he decide to take care of people and make Orzamar a better place to live, well i don't think so, he will only care to keep hes power.
So without knowing the epilogue i think Harrowmount is clearly the better choice (if we look at whos the better man and have better politics). Of course when I found out that Harrowmount was too weak to rule and stuff, I wasn't so sure anymore.

Bhelen being a kinslayer is actually in doubt, unless you're playing the DN origin and didn't bump off Trian yourself (my DNF did). My DN tried confronting Bhelen about what happened, and damned if he didn't actually have good reason (Trian and you were practically guaranteed to bump each other off anyway, with him justifiably worried about being next, because that's the way dear old dad gained his throne). As for being corrupt - so is Harrowmount - the man BUYS his votes for crying out loud.

and who knows WHAT other wheeling and dealing he does behind the scenes.  He keeps dropping hints that Bhelen killed his father but I always wondered just exactly what happened in those last hours when Harrowmont was with Endrin and wouldn't let anyone else see him.

Bhelen at least is pretty up front about being a douche.  Harrowmont strikes me as the kind of guy who smiles at your face while stabbing you in the back.  Polite does not equal noble or good.

TBH I don't like either and wish the game gives you an option C so you have to take the one you wish will do more for Orzammar.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 27 mars 2010 - 08:02 .

[Gilsa]

Draguling wrote...

Krasnoludek666555 wrote...

Well, there are two brothers in Warden's Keep. Architect and pirotechnican (he makes bombs from lyrium) and they say that they have been send to help the Wardens by King Harrowmont. So he must have been alive at least when he sent them there. He may be dead at the time of action, but i think that he is still alive, at least at the moment.

Nope, they clearly say king Bhalen.

Regarding this, the dwarves will use the name of the king that you've chosen for your game, but I found that there is no default king if you play as an Orlesian. They simply say "the king."

[Sarah1281]

Yes Rica gets very angry at you after you kill her Husband and won't talk to you for the rest of the game until the ending after you defeat the Archedemon (I took the Dark Ritual Option) she will talk to you after and forgive you as it seems she didn't really like her Husband in the first place.

After Orzammar you turn her from Prince-and-soon-to-be-King's concubine with royal son in line for the throne to 'that casteless girl Harrowmont has to take care of because her sibling made him King.' At the end of the game, the Assembly's made her an Ambassador, she's warrior caste, and you're on the fast-track to becoming a Paragon and making her a noble after all so it's kind of understandalbe. Besides, given Harrowmont's pretty clear casteless-hating ways and her steadfast - if deluded - belief that Bhelen gives a damn about his relatives, you choosing Harrowmont makes no sense and clearly shows that you no longer give a damn about her after all she sacrificed so you woudn't have to (especially as a DCF).

[Wotannanow]

Harrowmont is weak and unfit to rule. Bhelen may have come to power through ruthless and unjust manoeuvers, but he has shown himself as a leader that can take his people out of the dark age.

With an unfit weakling like Harrowmont at the rudder, the Dwarven empire would crumble even further.

[Gilsa]

Thund4H0rs3 wrote...

Gilsa wrote...

Has anyone played a commoner that sided with Harrowmont? I'm really curious what happens at the coronation ceremony, what Rica has to say to you after she's disowned you as her sibling. I was able to reload previous saves and play around with telling Harrowmont you've got a casteless sister and watching his reaction when he realizes he needs to look out for her to secure your cooperation. I'll probably end up making another casteless dwarf specifically to explore this story angle once I'm done messing around in Awakening. Unless someone already knows and can share! C'mon, there are a ton of comments that people pick dwarves for their evil playthroughs. No one sided with Harrowmont on the commoner? =p

Yes Rica gets very angry at you after you kill her Husband and won't talk to you for the rest of the game until the ending after you defeat the Archedemon (I took the Dark Ritual Option) she will talk to you after and forgive you as it seems she didn't really like her Husband in the first place.

Thank you soooo much.